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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Groovy I think you missed my point. We are allowed to have our opinions and biases. It is a part of what makes us who we are. The problem comes from one group trying to decide what is "fair" and "proper" and "won't make others feel bad". That's the part I have a problem with. I mean what's next? And aren't I allowed to be a racist and/or arrogant or anything else if I keep it to myself? Maybe youre a racist if you harbor racist thoughts, but I'll kindly ask you to keep your judgments of me to yourself. No matter who I don't like I dont have to admit anything to myself or anyone else and I dont need you defining anyone but yourself.

    Racism. A term that is bandied about on all sides and rarely in the proper context. Example: disagreeing with Obama isn't racism because he's black. Pretty stupid. But I have heard people called racist because they disgree with him. Are we now going to say that only people of the same race can disagree? Stooopid!!!

    And why do we care if someone thinks we're arrogant? Or a racist? Are those things illegal? No Should they be? No.

    Or we could legislate proper behavior and respect and not have any of this to deal with.
    Hey Woof, I wasn't judging you personally. All of my statements were hypothetical, only for the purpose of making a point. I think you got that but just wanted to be sure.

    I was trying to formulate a coherent response to the rest of your post but its late and I'm tired.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Groovy I think you missed my point. We are allowed to have our opinions and biases. It is a part of what makes us who we are. The problem comes from one group trying to decide what is "fair" and "proper" and "won't make others feel bad". That's the part I have a problem with. I mean what's next? And aren't I allowed to be a racist and/or arrogant or anything else if I keep it to myself? Maybe youre a racist if you harbor racist thoughts, but I'll kindly ask you to keep your judgments of me to yourself. No matter who I don't like I dont have to admit anything to myself or anyone else and I dont need you defining anyone but yourself.

    Racism. A term that is bandied about on all sides and rarely in the proper context. Example: disagreeing with Obama isn't racism because he's black. Pretty stupid. But I have heard people called racist because they disgree with him. Are we now going to say that only people of the same race can disagree? Stooopid!!!

    And why do we care if someone thinks we're arrogant? Or a racist? Are those things illegal? No Should they be? No.

    Or we could legislate proper behavior and respect and not have any of this to deal with.
    I guess I missed the point too.
    Is this post saying that no one has the right to tell anyone else how or what to think? If so, I agree with that, and I applaud that type of individualism. But then again, if you are letting racism be your window out of which you view the world, you're not practicing individualism. Prejudice/racism is not rational. It's inherently based on fear, history, the unknown etc. In effect it's “group think.” Much like the group you say you have a problem with.
    Last edited by Iago; 08/22/2009 at 06:47 AM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    I guess I missed the point too.
    Is this post saying that no one has the right to tell anyone else how or what to think? If so, I agree with that, and I applaud that type of individualism. But then again, if you are letting racism be your window out of which you view the world, you're not practicing individualism. Prejudice/racism is not rational. It's inherently based on fear, history, the unknown etc. In effect it's “group think.” Much like the group you say you have a problem with.
    I think that the point is that prejudice and "thought", while it can be vile and unsavory, should not be something legislated against. Racist acts should be, that is, the acts are what we write laws against, not the thoughts.

    That is why I draw the distinction between prejudiced and racist. A prejudiced person is just thinking negative things, not acting on them. A racist probably is; denying a job, denying housing, awarding a scholarship the university based on skin color, etc.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    That is why I draw the distinction between prejudiced and racist. A prejudiced person is just thinking negative things, not acting on them. A racist probably is; denying a job, denying housing, awarding a scholarship the university based on skin color, etc.
    Most definitions I have read refer to prejudice as a forejudgment; bias; preconceived opinion. It also includes more than just race. Women; a person who adheres to a certain religion; or from a certain socioeconomic class are all subjected to prejudice. Basically it's an attitude... a “belief”....

    Most definitions I have read likewise refer to racism as a “belief” that race...etc. Therefore, in regards to race, I don't see a difference between a racist person and prejudice person. One term is just more encompassing than the other. Therefore, a person can be a racist and have done nothing but marinate in his/her own negativity. An act is not required in order to be a racist. However, If your racist “belief” is coupled with an act then you are a racist that has committed a discriminatory act.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Most definitions I have read refer to prejudice as a forejudgment; bias; preconceived opinion. It also includes more than just race. Women; a person who adheres to a certain religion; or from a certain socioeconomic class are all subjected to prejudice. Basically it's an attitude... a “belief”....

    Most definitions I have read likewise refer to racism as a “belief” that race...etc. Therefore, in regards to race, I don't see a difference between a racist person and prejudice person. One term is just more encompassing than the other. Therefore, a person can be a racist and have done nothing but marinate in his/her own negativity. An act is not required in order to be a racist. However, If your racist “belief” is coupled with an act then you are a racist that has committed a discriminatory act.
    I'll concede your point for the sake of argument.

    So then what is your plan to eliminate racism, or combat it or whatever term you like? Are you supposing that you can somehow legislate what people are thinking?

    And of course it's the ones crying racism that define it this way "a person can be a racist and have done nothing but marinate in his/her own negativity. An act is not required in order to be a racist."

    Please do tell how you distinguish the racists from the non-racists. Are you clairvoyant?

    Dumbest thing I've heard today.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  6. groovy's Avatar
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    #46  
    Why does there have to be a discussion of "legislation" at all? We should be able to discuss/debate these topics without bringing government into it. As a libertarian I would much rather.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    So then what is your plan to eliminate racism, or combat it or whatever term you like? Are you supposing that you can somehow legislate what people are thinking?
    I'm not “supposing” anything. Hahahaha
    Legislating thought? WOW! That's even more far out than death panels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    And of course it's the ones crying racism that define it this way "a person can be a racist and have done nothing but marinate in his/her own negativity. An act is not required in order to be a racist."
    Actually I was drawing a conclusion there, but you should take it up with Merriam Webster and the like if you have a problem with the definition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Please do tell how you distinguish the racists from the non-racists. Are you clairvoyant?
    It seems the only one that's clairvoyant is you. Maybe we should take heed? Your telepathic abilities may be trying to tell us all something since it has you worrying about “thought” being legislated. hahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Dumbest thing I've heard today.
    You shouldn't talk about ALL your post's that way. People are entitled to their opinion, even when they don't know what they're talking about.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Most definitions I have read refer to prejudice as a forejudgment; bias; preconceived opinion. It also includes more than just race. Women; a person who adheres to a certain religion; or from a certain socioeconomic class are all subjected to prejudice. Basically it's an attitude... a “belief”....
    agree.
    Most definitions I have read likewise refer to racism as a “belief” that race...etc. Therefore, in regards to race, I don't see a difference between a racist person and prejudice person. One term is just more encompassing than the other. Therefore, a person can be a racist and have done nothing but marinate in his/her own negativity. An act is not required in order to be a racist. However, If your racist “belief” is coupled with an act then you are a racist that has committed a discriminatory act.
    Here's where we differ. A racist's "belief's" are his prejudices, but it's his actions that he based on those prejudices that makes him a racist. It's a fine fine line, but very important.

    My concern is the "thought" police. We shouldn't be imprisoned because of our thinking, however vile it may be. Thought is free. It's a double edged sword, I know.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Why does there have to be a discussion of "legislation" at all? We should be able to discuss/debate these topics without bringing government into it. As a libertarian I would much rather.
    I agree.

    But I recognize that some people need a diversion to lean on when they're losing an argument. To bad they haven't recognized how weak they look.

    we need a smilie of a pencil neck 98 pound weakling. hahaha
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    I'm not “supposing” anything. Hahahaha
    Legislating thought? WOW! That's even more far out than death panels.



    Actually I was drawing a conclusion there, but you should take it up with Merriam Webster and the like if you have a problem with the definition.



    It seems the only one that's clairvoyant is you. Maybe we should take heed? Your telepathic abilities may be trying to tell us all something since it has you worrying about “thought” being legislated. hahaha



    You shouldn't talk about ALL your post's that way. People are entitled to their opinion, even when they don't know what they're talking about.
    Well thank you very much. All I was doing was presenting an opposing viewpoint and asking some questions. Sorry you assumed I was attacking YOU. You posted the definition of racism without saying that you disagreed with it so I foolishly assumed it was your definition as well.
    The definition you posted implies that thought is bad. Often bad stuff is legislated against in an attempt to stop it.
    My wording should have been
    Please do tell how anyone would distinguish the racists from the non-racists. Are they using clairvoyants?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  11. #51  
    and you have Joe, Harry, Nancy, Charlie, Barney and bunches more. Palin must really be under your skin and that means she represents middle America a whole lot more than those above (Joe, Harry, Nancy, Charlie, Barney, Rahm and bunches more.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    And yet, even with a number of silly gaffes, Joe is still WAY smarter than any Republican in recent memory...let's see, you got Sarah Palin (who left her job so she can spend more time on Facebook), Bush (who remains a buffoon), etc, etc, etc...
  12. #52  
    Of course we still have Obama's 2 wars, his continued use of NO WARRANT wiretaps and now that his desire to take over health care and make it his personal property has been slowed down, he is now going back on ANOTHER campaign promise to NOT go after the CIA.

    What a man.
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