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  1. Micael's Avatar
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       #1  
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
    But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that's not making anybody's mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what? Maybe this isn't going to help. Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller. - President Obama, 24 June 2009 at the Obama, er, I mean, at the ABC News Health Care Forum
    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #2  
    Come up with a better proposal.
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  3. Micael's Avatar
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Come up with a better proposal.
    I propose that we leave the system pretty much alone, and look for ways to reduce wastes and abuse.... for instance, tort reform. The insurance that doctors have to carry is out of control. We could effect a huge reduction in medical overhead right there.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I propose that we leave the system pretty much alone, and look for ways to reduce wastes and abuse.... for instance, tort reform. The insurance that doctors have to carry is out of control. We could effect a huge reduction in medical overhead right there.
    What I am seeing happening right now are companies increasing the deductible on health insurance to lower the cost of health insurance. I have heard of companies going to a $500 and a $1000 deductible plan. This means that basic doctor visit and basic test will become an out of pocket expense. The current trend tells me health insurance will become catastrophic insurance, meaning unless you are having a major operation, it will all be out of pocket expense.

    Reducing abuse and medical malpractice claims will maintain cost, but I doubt we'll see a reduction in healthcare cost. You won't see hospitals advertisng rolled back pricing like the Walmart ads.

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  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #5  
    For me, insurance *is* for the more serious health issues, and should not be used for common colds and rashes.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    For me, insurance *is* for the more serious health issues, and should not be used for common colds and rashes.
    So you are saying that those types of ailments should be out of an out of pocket expense. I can understand that. Where do you draw the line? $500 deductible? $1000 deductible? $2000 deductible? $5000 deductible?
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  7. Micael's Avatar
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       #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    So you are saying that those types of ailments should be out of an out of pocket expense. I can understand that. Where do you draw the line? $500 deductible? $1000 deductible? $2000 deductible? $5000 deductible?
    No lines needed. This is about home remedies and over the counter meds versus what requires a doctor's attention. It's not a deductable issue. That comes into question when you need more than over the counter, and then should be selectable by the consumer. I want to be able to choose my deductables based on my situation. This is why we have so many different plans. Different people have different needs at different times of their lives. If I'm young, have a good job, and not playing risky sports, I may choose to pay out of pocket minor emergency/outpatient expenses, and a high deductable on hospitalization. In this case, my plan should have low premiums.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Come up with a better proposal.
    Eliminate the FDA and the AMA and allow private institutions to fill their roles both cheaper and more effectively, that'd be a great start.
  9. #9  
    Coming from Canada (heath care 99% funded via tax dollars for those not in the know) I can tell you that the Government has virtually no involvement with the particulars of your personal heath care. Those decisions are left up to people qualified to make them...like Doctors.

    That said the system is not set up like it is down here. In Canada Heath Care is provided to you without all these questions and worries about copay, coverages, maximums and quality of service. Instead of treating Health Care like a money making business, focused on profit margins and share holder return, it's the overall health of the population that is the number one goal. At no time is the patient aware of the costs involved with his or her treatment. Canadian's do pay more tax than Americans for this experience (but virtually nothing out of pocket) and there can be some wait time for complicated procedures or special items.

    I think most Americans would not like the Canadian model as it is more about the greater good and less about the individual.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 06/25/2009 at 10:53 AM.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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       #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I think most Americans would not like the Canadian model as it is more about the greater good and less about the individual.
    That comment spoke volumes. You underscored my original point. Thanks.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...If I'm young, have a good job, and not playing risky sports, I may choose to pay out of pocket minor emergency/outpatient expenses, and a high deductable on hospitalization. In this case, my plan should have low premiums.
    Let me relate emergency room cost to you. About 5 years ago I cut my foot, which required 6 stitches. I went to the Emergency room because I couldn't stop the bleeding. the total time I spend in the Emergency room was about an hour.

    My first bill came and it was $1,600.00. I wasn't going to pay the whole amount because I have insurance. Next I get the $1,600.00 bill again with a past due notice that I am being turned over to collections. I went to the hospital, because I was furious. When I got there, they had just received my insurance payment and I owed $160.00, so I paid it.

    Next I get I get a separate doctors bill for $2,200.00 my insurance paid all but $220.00 of the bill

    So a one hour emergency room visit cost $3,800.00
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  12. Micael's Avatar
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       #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Let me relate emergency room cost to you. About 5 years ago I cut my foot, which required 6 stitches. I went to the Emergency room because I couldn't stop the bleeding. the total time I spend in the Emergency room was about an hour.

    My first bill came and it was $1,600.00. I wasn't going to pay the whole amount because I have insurance. Next I get the $1,600.00 bill again with a past due notice that I am being turned over to collections. I went to the hospital, because I was furious. When I got there, they had just received my insurance payment and I owed $160.00, so I paid it.

    Next I get I get a separate doctors bill for $2,200.00 my insurance paid all but $220.00 of the bill

    So a one hour emergency room visit cost $3,800.00
    Yes, and my dad paid for both me and my siblings to be born in a hospital. And he had insurance, but only for "catastrophic" health issues. It took him a couple of years to pay off each delivery.

    You could opt for a different Plan. You have choices, and the numbers above would have been different. What is it about your story that requires government intervention?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?.
    The last thing I want is to have the people that run Social Security and the Vet hospitals running health care. But lets be fair, some bureaucrat already decides who lives and dies and what treatment they get. Only in this case they are concerned only about maximizing profits and not about an over burdened federal system.
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  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    .... What is it about your story that requires government intervention?
    The cost are out of control. Real simple case, I cut my foot and needed 6 stitches.

    I check into the Emergency room and they put me in a room. A nurse comes in and looks at my foot and says, keep direct pressure on it.

    A doctor walks in looks at my foot and says, you are going to need stitches. He walks out comes back in with a shot of Novocaine and injects it by the cut.

    Fifteen minutes later, he comes back and puts six stitches in my foot, and tells me to go see a Podiatrist to see if I did tendon damage.

    One hour $3,800.00
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  15. #15  
    We have the most expensive health care system in the world, and have the 37th best system (below Morocco). France, Germany and Sweden all have mixed public / private plans. NOBODY is stating that a public plan would replace the private option.

    Either the government can't effectively run health care, or it will run it so well that private insurance can't compete....you can't have it both ways.
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  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
    As opposed to the current system, where some insurance exec makes that decision.
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  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    One hour $3,800.00
    IMO - This isn't isolated to the USA. Even in other countries with public health care these costs are similar (bandages, power, pay the doctor, drugs). The added cost in the USA is feeding the insurance mega corporations. They are not in business for your benefit, they do what they must do to make a profit for the shareholders (as they should).
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    The cost are out of control. Real simple case, I cut my foot and needed 6 stitches. [...]
    One hour $3,800.00
    The real question is whether government controlled healthcare will do anything to affect a positive change. IOW, why are the costs out of control? I suspect there are quite a few reasons, but chief among them are 1) general ignorance about costs beyond out of pocket expense and 2) general provider insurance costs.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Either the government can't effectively run health care, or it will run it so well that private insurance can't compete....you can't have it both ways.
    I don't believe those are the arguments being made as the 'two' options. The question is how the government will handle it. If the government 'doesn't touch' existing private insurance, but instead provides 'government insurance' for certain groups and pays for it by taxing current insurance benefits as though they were general income for the people who have private insurance, it becomes a matter of whether private insurance will be feasible for most people that have it currently. How many people know their _real_ insurance cost? If your current insurance is partially or fully funded by your employer, do you know how much they pay compared to how much you pay? It has nothing to do with whether government will run it 'so well'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    We have the most expensive health care system in the world, and have the 37th best system (below Morocco). France, Germany and Sweden all have mixed public / private plans. NOBODY is stating that a public plan would replace the private option.

    Either the government can't effectively run health care, or it will run it so well that private insurance can't compete....you can't have it both ways.
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