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  1. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1941  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I think the term "progressive" warrants some clarification here. Is this progressive in the literal sense or the political sense?
    Just as a single example, you may want to check out republicansforobama.org sometime. With all the political theater going on in here, one might find the views expressed astonishingly refreshing and well reasoned. There are certainly other groups who define what a "progressive Republican" can be. In this sense, your answer is "both".
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #1942  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Just as a single example, you may want to check out republicansforobama.org sometime. With all the political theater going on in here, one might find the views expressed astonishingly refreshing and well reasoned. There are certainly other groups who define what a "progressive Republican" can be. In this sense, your answer is "both".
    Well, I have to ask because my experience is that when people, especially people who lean toward the Left, say they want to see more progressive Republicans, they most often, if not always mean they want to see Republicans that agree with them. It appears that's the case in your statement as well. Yes?
  3. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1943  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, I have to ask because my experience is that when people, especially people who lean toward the Left, say they want to see more progressive Republicans, they most often, if not always mean they want to see Republicans that agree with them. It appears that's the case in your statement as well. Yes?
    You could not be more wrong. But, confirming that would take the courage to venture out of your comfort zone and listen for a long while to those similar to you before saying a word. Now it becomes the other guy's fault that many Republicans have woken up and are freely thinking for themselves for the first time in their adult lives versus just following and regurgitating the talking points of their leadership and talkshow hosts? Just as in life, you can't boil this down to a simplistic pattern of agreeing people who sing kumbahya around the campfire. It doesn't work that way.
  4. #1944  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I have never been impressed with HSA's, in whatever guise they have been sold. I realize they are the backbone of many conservative approaches, but the details of how the money is actually handled is bothersome. If I had invested my HSA with Lehman Bros., I would not be happy. Additionally, as is well known to anyone who has studied HSA's, the major selling point is a tax break. That's fine if you have a decent income, but waitresses will not benefit very much from a tax break. And people with chronic disease will cruise through an HSA in no time unless there are concomitant cost controls.
    Well....no surprise, but I disagre with you on HSAs. What they do provide is a "max" loss. In my case, my wife and I have a $4000 ded and then it pays 100%. So, worse case scenario, my wife and I combined are out $4000. Of course, we also each get a physical each year paid at 100%, no deductible and no co-pay. I don't remember how much our premiums went down, but it was about 30%. But the bottom line, I will likely not go bankrupt with a max loss of $4000. I think that is what is overlooked, is that a high deductible plan sets a max loss and not many people will go bankrupt with a $4000, $5000, or $6000 loss. But I will agree with you doc that it is not for the waitress who goes to the doctor 6 or 7 times a year and who would utilize the prescription card often. I think we've had this disagreement before, about the validity of HSAs, but it can be a way to reduce your premium while still limiting your overall exposure to a major health incident. It is especially nice if you have an employer willing to contribute to the savings account element, which can then be used to pay for doctor visits and prescriptions (tax free!). So don't knock it for everyone.
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  5. #1945  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The fact is, when people are bankrupted by a medical condition, they often move to Europe to get quality care.
    Really? I would like to see that data. The only people I hear leaving the US for medical treatment is for treatments that are experimental and/or highly questionable.
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  6. #1946  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    He's planning on a 10th amendment challenge to to National Healthcare. If he wins he'll also shoot down Medicare and Medicaid.
    Despite all of the "states' rights" rhetoric, the Supreme Court rarely accepts 10th Amendment arguments. Rallying cries aside, it's simply not as simplistic as some folks claim.

    That's why we continue to have such items as Medicare and a Dept of Education. It's not because nobody's ever thought to bring up a 10th Amendment challenge, but because those challenges are not successful.

    Good overview of the applicable laws here: http://www.healthreformwatch.com/200...lth-insurance/
    Last edited by Bujin; 09/11/2009 at 08:50 PM.
  7. #1947  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I think the term "progressive" warrants some clarification here. Is this progressive in the literal sense or the political sense?
    It is undoubtedly progressive in the neolib sense.

    That being said, I'm curious as to why in all this debate, more time hasn't been spent on bills such as the Healthy Americans Act. While I am philosophically of the opinion that health care is not within the scope of the Constitutionally granted powers of the Federal Government (which means it's not covered under implied powers either), a quick skim of this bill seems certainly less intrusive and convoluted than HR3200.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #1948  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Thats a different argument. I do not believe that I should pay the insurance premiums for illegal aliens. At the same time, I wouldn't want to deny emergency care, even to an illegal alien. Liberals haven't cornered the market on compassion.... yet.
    And you are talking about what? There was no mention of illegal aliens in what I posted. Do you really think that the only people without health insurance are illegals? Believe it or not, our country includes all the people in it, even those that don't have insurance. And their lack of prenatal care because they can't afford it is responsible for our horrible performance in neonatal mortality, for example. Our population is not provided the high quality health care that many other nations receive. Look at the links. Yep, great system. As long as you've got a great employer or have lots of money. Otherwise take your chances.
  9. #1949  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Wow, that's a bold statement. Can you quantify "often"?
    While I'll have to admit my post was from the hip I can point to this:
    Mexico's health care lures Americans

    My personal take is should I find myself facing a catastrophic illness requiring treatment which would bankrupt me, I'm high-tailing it to Europe.

    Of course you can easily assume I want to retire in Europe anyway. Hopefully within 10 years. Just can't convince my wife to choose Amsterdam or Ireland. Too cold for her.
  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #1950  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    You could not be more wrong. But, confirming that would take the courage to venture out of your comfort zone and listen for a long while to those similar to you before saying a word. Now it becomes the other guy's fault that many Republicans have woken up and are freely thinking for themselves for the first time in their adult lives versus just following and regurgitating the talking points of their leadership and talkshow hosts? Just as in life, you can't boil this down to a simplistic pattern of agreeing people who sing kumbahya around the campfire. It doesn't work that way.
    Well, let me tell you something you may find surprising and/or unbelievable. I'm a registered Republican. I know a lot of Republicans in my work and personal life. We don't always agree and most of the ones I talk to don't take talking points from talk show hosts. Most of us don't even listen to talk radio or watch Fox News with any regularity. I work with professionals so maybe you can say my experience is different, but most of the Republicans I know are intelligent and thoughtful people.
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    #1951  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    While I'll have to admit my post was from the hip I can point to this:
    Mexico's health care lures Americans

    My personal take is should I find myself facing a catastrophic illness requiring treatment which would bankrupt me, I'm high-tailing it to Europe.

    Of course you can easily assume I want to retire in Europe anyway. Hopefully within 10 years. Just can't convince my wife to choose Amsterdam or Ireland. Too cold for her.
    I''ll look into this further but all I can say is, I hope they don't find themselves in a malpractice situation. While they may have cheap health care, I'm not sure I'd trust the Mexican legal system to right a medical error. But, it all goes back to "you get what you pay for".

    As for your retirement, I'm partial to the Irish!
  12. #1952  
    i read the first page of this thread and saw people saying get rid of the FDA and the AMA, lots of factual inaccuracies. Then it occurred to me that there are 107 pages. Is there really a point to me entering a discussion that's probably got a 107 pages full of strange arguments, inaccuracies, etc. I think I'll skip this discussion. Play nice guys. Don't beat each other up too bad. Especially since I'm sure some of you don't actually have any health insurance.
  13. #1953  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    ...As for your retirement, I'm partial to the Irish!
    I'll soon be ready for the French Rivera!
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    #1954  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    It is undoubtedly progressive in the neolib sense.

    That being said, I'm curious as to why in all this debate, more time hasn't been spent on bills such as the Healthy Americans Act. While I am philosophically of the opinion that health care is not within the scope of the Constitutionally granted powers of the Federal Government (which means it's not covered under implied powers either), a quick skim of this bill seems certainly less intrusive and convoluted than HR3200.
    I'm more favorable to the "private and portable" approach. Although I will say that I don't think it will be as simple as "prohibiting" insurance companies from cherry-picking subscribers and charging more for preexisting conditions. The bottom line is that health care for some people will be much more expensive than for others. One could say that the influx of new subscribers will mitigate this added financial burden, but many of those new subscribers will also come with preexisting conditions.

    It also remains to be seen what impact the "Employer Shared Responsibility Payments" will have on small employers.
    Last edited by groovy; 09/11/2009 at 11:56 PM.
  15. #1955  
    To me, the numbers speak for themselves. What is it? 16% of our GNP goes to healthcare? With how many still uninsured or under insured? and those are the cases that will cost even more. England uses like what, 8% of their GNP for healthcare and they have no uninsured or under insured. It just doesn't make sense to keep our current model.
    Last edited by palandri; 09/12/2009 at 12:27 AM.
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  16. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1956  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, let me tell you something you may find surprising and/or unbelievable. I'm a registered Republican. I know a lot of Republicans in my work and personal life. We don't always agree and most of the ones I talk to don't take talking points from talk show hosts. Most of us don't even listen to talk radio or watch Fox News with any regularity. I work with professionals so maybe you can say my experience is different, but most of the Republicans I know are intelligent and thoughtful people.
    You have no idea how happy I am to hear that your personal and professional life does not reflect the temperament of those who would refer to themselves as Republicans/Conservatives or for the sake of convenient political cover, neuvo-"Independents" in this forum. Of course, that does not preclude any one of you from venturing from your comfort zone to discover what positions more progressive Republicans are taking, and why they are taking them.
  17. #1957  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Of course, that does not preclude any one of you from venturing from your comfort zone to discover what positions more progressive Republicans are taking, and why they are taking them.
    What is this comfort zone you speak of?
  18. #1958  
    Amazing. Less than 2% of the population has an insurance problem and we need a crooked president, a crooked organization like ACORN, and liars like Nancy, Harry, and bunches of others to run us in the ground. Fix the problems is just fine. Doing it and ruining the economy and what this country stands for is just plain criminal.

    Progressive Republicans are just as bad as Progressive Democrats. The Progressive movement has stolen from the masses for its own purposes.
  19. #1959  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And yet people continue to flock to America......go figure, huh? Not sure why anyone would want to live in this capitalistic hell hole....LOL.
    Actually, people are continuing to flock FROM America for care....750,000 and climbing every day.

    For uninsured or underinsured Americans, low prices make treatment in Asia an attractive option.

    Surgery in Thailand and Latin America can cost a quarter of its U.S. price, and JCI-accredited Wockhardt Hospitals offer open heart surgery in India for $8,500, compared to around $100,000 in the U.S. and $28,000 in the UK.



    I just can't afford health care in my own country
  20. #1960  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Actually, people are continuing to flock FROM America for care....750,000 and climbing every day.

    I just can't afford health care in my own country
    An estimated 750,000 and climbing is a pretty significant number. I know of a women that went to Costa Rica to have an abdominoplasty after having twins.
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