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  1. Micael's Avatar
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       #1921  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You're absolutely right. It does have the world's best health care. That is, for everyone who has almost unlimited access to it. When you count the 45 million or so who don't, and the millions on Medicare who can't find a doctor to treat them, and average it out, we are miserable, and there are tons of data that show that. Of course, conservatives don't like the measures that are used, and complain bitterly about how those outcomes are biased and not relevant to our population. Manure. We do not compare favorably in our ability to provide health care for our population. There is no argument about that from anyone that can read.
    Thats a different argument. I do not believe that I should pay the insurance premiums for illegal aliens. At the same time, I wouldn't want to deny emergency care, even to an illegal alien. Liberals haven't cornered the market on compassion.... yet.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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       #1922  
    Quote Originally Posted by hermanifer View Post
    Where else in the world have you lived and exprience their health care system? I'm just curious.
    I've lived in Europe, Australia, UK, Phillipines, and Hong Kong. I only once directly experienced treatment, in Germany in 1975, when I suffered 3rd degree burns to the chest. I can say that I've known others though, that have directly experienced their respective systems.

    Note that it's one thing to compare systems. It's another thing to compare citizen's perspectives about their systems. Two totally different measurements.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1923  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Add: And since someone is certain to bring up the fact that Medicare is looking dicey long-term, here's what can be done to fix it. Do away with the republican drug benefit/handout to drug companies. That would save a bunch right there. Limit reimbursement to interventions proven efficactious. Require reasonable documentation before reimbursing for expensive technology. Reduce duplication in treatments by having a gatekeeper coordinate care and limit access to subspecialists. I suspect that these changes would clearly save considerable money for Medicare.
    You mean to make Big Pharma compete on a fair & balanced scale along with all the other players? Wouldn't the Space/Time Continuum split in two if we allowed such a thing?

    I'm right with you where reimbursements being tied to measurable, clinical results. Results-based medicine should be the foundation of today's practice, IMO. Of course, in many cases, the old system of DRGs is still essentially in effect whereby only X-number of dollars are going to be reimbursed for a given procedure/therapy. Therefore, adding costs which do not measurably benefit the patient or lower real costs should be those first on the chopping block. Every single hospital CEO/CFO should be put on 180-day notice to shape up or go back to work for some HMO group.
  4. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1924  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I've lived in Europe, Australia, UK, Phillipines, and Hong Kong. I only once directly experienced treatment, in Germany in 1975, when I suffered 3rd degree burns to the chest. I can say that I've known others though, that have directly experienced their respective systems.

    Note that it's one thing to compare systems. It's another thing to compare citizen's perspectives about their systems. Two totally different measurements.
    Was this as a member of US armed services?
  5. Faculak99's Avatar
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    #1925  
    You guys hit the nail on the head when you mentioned what employers are doing to cut health costs. employers, and employees are the ones asking each other how to deal with healthcare, when it should be the medical industry and insurance companies that be held accountable. I mediate negotiations so I will give you my spill on this.

    The government is taking the right approach, but asking the wrong people for the decision. Waste comes from seeing one doctor and getting x-rays, then being sent to another doctor, and they wish to take x-rays using their facility. Information is not being shared when the opportunity arises. Resources are not being shared when the opportunity arises. I love my chiropractor, but he wants to use all of his equipment to help cover his debt and costs. He has to find a way to pay for the x-ray tech that he keeps on staff.

    Healthcare needs reform, but the problem is that the government's choice for reference is to ask insurance companies how to cut costs. That's like asking a car salesman if you need the extra warranty.

    The bigger question should be why do such services cost soooo much? Obama mentioned transparency. We need to see that transparency with the choices we make for healthcare and insurance premiums.

    While we are putting things in the wish basket - when the hell are they going to invent a prostate exam that doesn't make me curl up in the fetal position and leave knowing my doctor's ring size?
  6. #1926  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And yet people continue to flock to America......go figure, huh? Not sure why anyone would want to live in this capitalistic hell hole....LOL.
    The fact is, when people are bankrupted by a medical condition, they often move to Europe to get quality care.
  7. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1927  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    One of the issues with technology is not that it's too expensive but that it's too prevalent. There is no reason for five private practices that are in the same building to each own their own MRI. The machines sit empty, they're never used at night or during off hours, but they can still generate a lot of money for their practices. Controlling costs means that doctors have to give up some independence, and that patients can't always get what they want. When you twist your knee kicking your dog, there is no reason to do an MRI in most cases, but it's amazing how frequently patients demand them. There are excessive procedures done for defensive medicine, but as I've said, I think more are done because of a lack of knowledge basem, patient demand, and the profit motive. People might have to come after hours for an MRI. Doctors might have to work shifts. Hospitals become very quiet on the weekends. Why? Given the investment in materials and technology, if you're making a profit (or breaking even) 5 days a week, are the personell costs going to make you lose money if you work 7 days a week? Oh, you don't want to come in on Saturday for your exercise test? Fine, then it will cost you and everybody else more. This is an exaggeration, but it's true as a general principle. Technology needs to be controlled. That will,by necessity,mean that manufacturers won't be able to sell as many MRI's and some of their employees might be jobless. There's no easy way out of the mess we've gotten ourselves into, but we have to do something.

    NIH funding is the backbone of medical discovery in this country. If you think that the US has a great health care system, you can look to the NIH as the reason (and not private industry research funding, as someone mentioned early in this thread). It would be incredibly short-sighted to limit NIH funding (as was done by many presidents, most of them republican, including Bush and Reagan). And hey, you know what? The NIH is the government.
    I share your sensibility regarding the use/abuse of technology in healthcare, both from an asset perspective and its overuse. I'd prefer to receive care from an excellent clinician than one who has mastered the controls to a device. Far too often, the easiest/fastest way to determine a direction for care of an individual patient is too narrowly focused on only measurable results from tests or device, without the independent, clinically trained brain kicking in to render wise judgment.

    The same NIH that serves as the backbone to America's clinical research is a government agency? Does that mean that all those who believe such government involvement in their daily lives should refuse to receive the H1N1 vaccination? We wouldn't want to encourage hypocritical behavior, now would we?

    @faculak99: You don't really consider chiropractors (or podiatrists) to be clinicians, do you? These are business people in a white coat!
  8. #1928  
    Of course. I say that data supports that our country doesn't have the world's best health care, so the response is that I'm calling America a "hell hole".
    You've provided data, but not that supports your premise. I believe the US has the world's best health care.
    Here you go...I've provided info regarding life expectancy, infant mortality, cost, and satisfaction. What metrics, other than "American-ness", are you using to support your belief that we outperform other countries?

    Life expectancy

    Infant mortality

    Health care costs

    Satisfaction:


    65% of French citizens are satisfied with their health care, as compared to 40% of Americans: The French Lesson In Health Care

    55% of Canadians are satisfied: http://www.who.int/patientsafety/news/2006_hcic.pdf

    66% of Germans were satisfied: Health Care in France and Germany
    Last edited by Bujin; 09/11/2009 at 05:15 PM.
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  9. #1929  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The fact is, when people are bankrupted by a medical condition, they often move to Europe to get quality care.
    ...and not to forget:

    "Americans pay more for prescription medicine than the rest of the world. The price differential puts prescription medicine out of reach for too many people. The current situation is unfair and cannot continue."

    Minnesota Governor
    Tim Pawlenty

    Minnesota RxConnect : Home
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  10. anthillmob's Avatar
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    #1930  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course. I say that data supports that our country doesn't have the world's best health care, so the response is that I'm calling America a "hell hole".

    I could be wrong, but I think that you realize that people are not flocking to our country for health care, but rather there are a host of reasons why people come here. I'd be glad to hear any actual data that shows that our health care outperforms Europe: cost, life expectancy, patient satisfaction.

    Y'know, something other than "America is perfect...love it or leave it."
    Sorry.... wasn't clear enough. I wasn't suggesting that people are flocking to the US because of the healthcare (although certainly many people do come for medical treatment unavailable in their own country) or that the healthcare is vastly superior (although I believe in many ways and for most people it is) but rather that the US system as a whole has been vastly more successful. It is this that draws people to this country. The problem is that an increasing number of people in this country, including a large percentage of immigrants I would guess, don't seem to appreciate that this country has been so successful due to it traditionally low level of government interference (relatively.....). They believe that this country has somehow beaten the odds and managed to succeed despite this and desperately want to change to the "better" system used by others. For some reason that I don't understand, since it goes in the face of evidence, more and more people seem to seem to believe that you can have all the perks and advantages of a free society or capitalist society but without any of the disadvantages.

    Sadly this, and all the related arguments, have a sad undertone...... these people have a very low opinion of their follow humans. They seem to think that they are the only generous and caring people and that everybody else needs to be forced to part with their money by a massively inefficient government (although I doubt they would concede that :-)).

    Finally, I feel the need to end this by making it clear that I don't think the current system is working well, and clearly it can, and should, be improved....... although if I was placing wagers, I would bet I will still be accused of being an obstructionist naysayer who defends the current system :-).
  11. #1931  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Thats a different argument. I do not believe that I should pay the insurance premiums for illegal aliens. At the same time, I wouldn't want to deny emergency care, even to an illegal alien. Liberals haven't cornered the market on compassion.... yet.
    Then you should be very glad that the President's health care proposal clearly doesn't cover illegal aliens: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...s-health-bill/
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  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #1932  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The fact is, when people are bankrupted by a medical condition, they often move to Europe to get quality care.
    Wow, that's a bold statement. Can you quantify "often"?
  13. anthillmob's Avatar
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    #1933  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The fact is, when people are bankrupted by a medical condition, they often move to Europe to get quality care.
    Although presumably only those with citizenship of a European country or some highly marketable skill that enables them to get a job....... While I believe it could be relatively easy to get into a European country, I am not sure they open wide their arms to people who have no money and citizenship rights........ I am certain they don't provide them with expensive healthcare! So really we are talking about people who were happy to take advantage of the system here when things were going well for them, but then feel free to take the money of taxpayers in a country in which they have not paid taxes...... hum..... a big loss?
  14. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1934  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Here you go...I've provided info regarding life expectancy, infant mortality, cost, and satisfaction. What metrics, other than "American-ness", are you using to support your belief that we outperform other countries?
    Thanks for all the info! Did you happen to discover one covering Quality of Life studies? To me, that counts highly.
  15. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1935  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ...and not to forget:

    "Americans pay more for prescription medicine than the rest of the world. The price differential puts prescription medicine out of reach for too many people. The current situation is unfair and cannot continue."

    Minnesota Governor
    Tim Pawlenty
    And given that Minnesota is one of the most progressive states where its healthcare is concerned, it's refreshing to know that not every Republican shares the expressed views of most of those here. Certainly there is such a thing as a progressive Republican here where healthcare is concerned? Speak up already!
  16. #1936  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Thanks for all the info! Did you happen to discover one covering Quality of Life studies? To me, that counts highly.
    Here you go...the US is 13th as of 2005, from the Economist Intelligence Unit’s quality-of-life index:

    Quality-of-Life Index
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  17. #1937  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    And given that Minnesota is one of the most progressive states where its healthcare is concerned, it's refreshing to know that not every Republican shares the expressed views of most of those here. Certainly there is such a thing as a progressive Republican here where healthcare is concerned? Speak up already!
    Drug cost was his main concern, on healthcare, Pawlenty is just a another puppet. He's planning on a 10th amendment challenge to to National Healthcare. If he wins he'll also shoot down Medicare and Medicaid.
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  18. groovy's Avatar
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    #1938  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    And given that Minnesota is one of the most progressive states where its healthcare is concerned, it's refreshing to know that not every Republican shares the expressed views of most of those here. Certainly there is such a thing as a progressive Republican here where healthcare is concerned? Speak up already!
    I think the term "progressive" warrants some clarification here. Is this progressive in the literal sense or the political sense?
  19. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1939  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Drug cost was his main concern, on healthcare, Pawlenty is just a another puppet. He's planning on a 10th amendment challenge to to National Healthcare. If he wins he'll also shoot down Medicare and Medicaid.
    Just when I thought there might be a silver-lining to Republicans/conservatives on healthcare ... You have to go and pop my balloon!

    But in reality, under a nationwide reorg to healthcare, it's likely that Medicare, and especially Medicaid will be overhauled anyway to fit the new paradigm, rightly so. Probably not what Pawlenty has in mind, and thankfully he will lose badly his challenge, but he's just lifting his political profile for a presidential run in '12.
  20. groovy's Avatar
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    #1940  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Drug cost was his main concern, on healthcare, Pawlenty is just a another puppet.
    Or... he actually believes what he's doing is the right thing to do.

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