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  1. #1861  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Don't worry, bucko.
    You really don't do 'your side' any justice by getting out of sorts like this.
    Doctors already do work extra hours. Your sarcasm, rather than being irritating, is actually pathetic. Your attacks on everyone who disagrees with you stand out,
    That's what psychologists call projection.
    as does your inability to grasp the obvious....
    Says the guy who missed that his hospital could deduct the costs of providing for the needy non-insured under the KAM plan.
    that you and your ilk
    'Ilk'? I'm sure you don't mean that in the pejorative sense.
    are obstructionist, with nothing worthwhile to contribute,
    Well, except for the money that they put into the non-system that keeps you in business. You're thankful for that, though, right?
    and especially nothing worthwhile to say.
    So they should just shut up and let 'you and your ilk' tell them what's good for them.
    Please, by all means....ignore us. I beg you.
    I think this is a case of unintended honesty.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #1862  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    [...] Everyone who doesn't agree with you is fear mongering. [...]
    What I don't understand is how questioning the plans being bandied about (or the logical extension of the stated goals and policies of those proposing them) is fear-mongering, and yet trying to get federal health care run through by constantly bringing up the specter of bankrupting the economy, bankrupting families, getting sick and losing insurance, etc. is not fear-mongering.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1863  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Don't worry, bucko. Doctors already do work extra hours. Your sarcasm, rather than being irritating, is actually pathetic. Your attacks on everyone who disagrees with you stand out, as does your inability to grasp the obvious....that you and your ilk are obstructionist, with nothing worthwhile to contribute, and especially nothing worthwhile to say. Please, by all means....ignore us. I beg you.
    I'm not attempting to be sarcastic with you in regards to this example. I'm taking conditions that you set out and suggesting a concept--for the purpose of discussion.

    I'm sure many doctors work long hours--especially young doctors. I'm not attempting to make light of the situation, but rather stating that working the extra hours equal to the non-paying customer's needs would help to keep the total income level high. That combined with the second option, where the material costs are paid for with taxpayer funds would be an less burdensome system.

    One of the things you and/or others pointed out is the drain that occurs with insurance companies. That's true--they take X dollars and return less than X dollars. The same goes for the government. Using YOUR and people on your side of the issue's criteria, I came up with the suggestion I did. By eliminating almost all government or insurance involvement in regards to providing medical care for the poor, it makes that as efficient as possible. The way that came to mind and that I posted was to eliminate all that red-tape and overhead of administration by keeping the interaction directly between doctor and patient--something else I believe you looked on favorably.

    You think I'm joking, or poking fun at you, or being sarcastic. I'm not--I'm taking the criteria that you put forward and suggesting the most efficient system to meet the goals you state. I make no claim that it is perfect or even anything close--its just a concept, and evaluating that concept teaches things.

    I'm going to ignore your labels, and insults that you seem to depend on and keep talking about the issues--even if only via a conceptual discussion such as this. If you aren't interested in discussing it, then don't reply. However, despite the claims of you and others who spend a good amount of their time making accusations, I've posted quite a number of ideas. So, your claim that I've added nothing worthwhile is of course your subjective claim, not a fact.

    If you dislike my views and ideas, I'd really ask that you deal with that in an adult manner, and stop with the school-yard type of stuff. You don't have to keep trying to apply labels to me. If people think I'm an obstructionist, then they will come to that conclusion--it doesn't matter either way, because I know what my views are and why I believe them.

    KAM
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1864  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Well, with that retort, you certainly make yourself perfectly clear, though not in ways you intended. That's certainly your choice.

    In this instance, fear-mongering is continually suggesting that 'X' is an economic failure, and by extension that anything else originating from the same government is condemned to failure, without providing the data to confirm the premise. Concluding that is just being reasonable, not difficult.

    And, by the way, the term "soldier" infers militance, which I am certainly not. If one is to have a dignified, informed discussion, it requires more than one party (or Party, in the big picture). No need to get frustrated just because you make it so plainly known that you unfairly compare apples to oranges while playing cheap, short-term politics.
    Social Security and Medicare are headed towards financial insolvency--those are facts, but you call it fear mongering. You do so, because you have no argument to counter these facts and they reflect badly on what you apparently advocate. When you have no ability to support your chosen position, you have no alternative but to attack your opponents as a distraction.

    You have to throw up a wall of noise, hoping to bait people talking about things that endanger what you want. That's why people like Nancy Pelosi accuse citizens of being insurance company shills, while 'Organizing for America, SEIU and Moveon.org bus their supporters into meetings. At its core, its simply lying. Its the same reason that you put on your little false righteousness declaring yourself a supporter of "progress" and champion exposing the "obstructionists and fear mongers."

    You spend the vast majority of your posts in distorting what others say, labeling them and their views, and saying nothing. As I said--its a wall of noise.

    What amazes me is the total dishonesty that this sort of thing requires. I'm not accustomed to dealing with people so willing to say anything--no matter how blatantly false it is.

    Data? I suggest you look at the CBO's analysis of these various plans, and you will see that in fact, they are predicting very significant costs. Of course it wouldn't matter if I typed the whole report here, because you aren't interested in data or facts at all. If you were, you wouldn't bother repeating your baiting nonsense again and again.

    Its funny--both you and the doctor keep saying that I'm saying nothing, giving no reasoning, no data--that I'm essentially meaningless. But apparently you feel the need to respond--even if it is the same tired accusations.

    But darn it--here you've succeeded again. I've spent time on your noise. Its my own fault--stupid desire to assume people are sincere and worth talking to.

    KAM
  5. settelma's Avatar
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    #1865  
    It is very strange that people just through out random statements and refer to them as facts. The fact is that the political parties in the United States is the best propaganda to machine ever. Better then the Soviet Union could ever imagine. I truly believe in a two party system just not these two parties.

    Below is a link to an ACLU skit on National ID (from 2003), but it is relevant to the Government run medical approach. There is no way I want the Government meddling with my personal life!

    http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1866  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    What I don't understand is how questioning the plans being bandied about (or the logical extension of the stated goals and policies of those proposing them) is fear-mongering, and yet trying to get federal health care run through by constantly bringing up the specter of bankrupting the economy, bankrupting families, getting sick and losing insurance, etc. is not fear-mongering.
    Well, I'm really a bit baffled by this as well. It isn't the dishonesty--its the denial that is required to allow someone to be that dishonest. You mentioned Projection and maybe that's it. I guess I'd almost prefer that rather than to know that someone is choosing to engage in such dishonesty willingly.

    It's nearly impossible to engage in a discussion with certain people--not because there is disagreement, but because they can't deal with the existence of the disagreement in an sort of rational way.

    I fear this might be a reflection of the state of our society--where it no longer is a matter of disagreeing with someone. They seem to be literally unable to tolerate the existence of a view that disagrees with them. They simply cannot deal with it.

    Palandri posted earlier his view about inheritance tax. To be honest--I think its a really horrible idea that violates foundational elements of the country itself, but I didn't get mad at him for talking about it. I didn't feel the need to put words into his mouth, or lie about what he said, or label him. He's just got an idea that I think is terrible. It doesn't harm me for him to have that view or to post it--I'm free to disagree with it.

    KAM
  7. #1867  
    Talk about the government meddling and who they meddle with. Take a look at:

    http://biggovernment.com
  8. #1868  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    ...Palandri posted earlier his view about inheritance tax. To be honest--I think its a really horrible idea that violates foundational elements of the country itself, but I didn't get mad at him for talking about it. I didn't feel the need to put words into his mouth, or lie about what he said, or label him. He's just got an idea that I think is terrible. It doesn't harm me for him to have that view or to post it--I'm free to disagree with it.

    KAM
    ... and I respect your opinion on it. As I posted, the idea of any type of inheritance tax really hurt McGovern when he ran for President.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1869  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So they should just shut up and let 'you and your ilk' tell them what's good for them.
    This really gets to the root of the matter I think. These people demand that we just shut up and accept what they decide is best for us--that we have no right to even disagree. Just shut up and do what we demand of you, and don't you dare open your mouth, and don't you dare oppose us.

    KAM
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1870  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ... and I respect your opinion on it. As I posted, the idea of any type of inheritance tax really hurt McGovern when he ran for President.
    Well, I hope you weren't planning to run for office then.

    KAM
  11. #1871  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, I hope you weren't planning to run for office then.

    KAM
    Nope, not ever going to run for any office.

    Here's a 1972 Time article on McGovern's inheritance tax proposal. He got slammed really hard on it. He was messing with family fortunes.

    POLITICAL REPORT: What McGovern Would Mean to the Country - TIME
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  12. #1872  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Who needs more than 5 million to start out with?
    Who are you to determine what someone "needs"?
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #1873  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    If the 100% inheritance tax started at 5 million, how would it effect you? I don't think it would take a penny from you. The inheritance tax could fund a lot of healthcare cost. So why is it crazy? Who needs more than 5 million to start out with?
    The problem with setting the limit to some arbitrary number, especially one as low as $5 million, effectively builds a firewall between the wealthy, who mostly abide by the same tax laws as you and I do, and the super-wealthy who have the means of sheltering their wealth in other ways, including off-shore. So your limitation would have the opposite consequence that you might expect.
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #1874  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I understand what you are saying. I think they are good points, but I don't agree with them. Like I said, I think everyone should have to work for living. I think money creates an inequitable starting gate and it's really difficult to find other ways to create an edge. On your 3rd point. How much do we owe China? If you want to see something real spooky, the bank of China has started funding new construction projects in Chicago. I think China is going to take over the world.
    I agree that everyone should work for a living but I'm not willing to give the government the power to make that decision. As for China, that wealth is created by corruption and the exploitation of labor. They're certainly no model for wealth parity. But, if they do take over the world at least I'm well-positioned... I love Chinese food.
  15. #1875  
    Simple question _ do you trust the government?
  16. #1876  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    This post makes things so much clearer. And I have no doubt you really believe that the 1.2 update for your phone is way more important than providing health care to people that don't have it. After all, once this thing is settled, you'll just go on to your pool. You won't have to deal with the consequences until someone in your family gets sick and the insurance company dumps on them. Oh, I'm sure you will say you were just lightening the discussion, being funny....guess what? You're not. And neither is the topic. It deserves better that you and Kam and the rest of your obstructionist buddies with nothing to add can provide. And that's exactly what will happen.
    WOW....now here's a guy that clearly had a bad day!
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  17. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1877  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I'm not attempting to be sarcastic with you in regards to this example. I'm taking conditions that you set out and suggesting a concept--for the purpose of discussion.

    I'm sure many doctors work long hours--especially young doctors. I'm not attempting to make light of the situation, but rather stating that working the extra hours equal to the non-paying customer's needs would help to keep the total income level high. That combined with the second option, where the material costs are paid for with taxpayer funds would be an less burdensome system.

    One of the things you and/or others pointed out is the drain that occurs with insurance companies. That's true--they take X dollars and return less than X dollars. The same goes for the government. Using YOUR and people on your side of the issue's criteria, I came up with the suggestion I did. By eliminating almost all government or insurance involvement in regards to providing medical care for the poor, it makes that as efficient as possible. The way that came to mind and that I posted was to eliminate all that red-tape and overhead of administration by keeping the interaction directly between doctor and patient--something else I believe you looked on favorably.

    You think I'm joking, or poking fun at you, or being sarcastic. I'm not--I'm taking the criteria that you put forward and suggesting the most efficient system to meet the goals you state. I make no claim that it is perfect or even anything close--its just a concept, and evaluating that concept teaches things.

    I'm going to ignore your labels, and insults that you seem to depend on and keep talking about the issues--even if only via a conceptual discussion such as this. If you aren't interested in discussing it, then don't reply. However, despite the claims of you and others who spend a good amount of their time making accusations, I've posted quite a number of ideas. So, your claim that I've added nothing worthwhile is of course your subjective claim, not a fact.

    If you dislike my views and ideas, I'd really ask that you deal with that in an adult manner, and stop with the school-yard type of stuff. You don't have to keep trying to apply labels to me. If people think I'm an obstructionist, then they will come to that conclusion--it doesn't matter either way, because I know what my views are and why I believe them.

    KAM
    How can one state so much yet inform so little? Quite the talent in building your own little brick wall.

    By your perfectly clear avoidance of the cruxt of the issue, should it be reasonably deduced that you do not feel an apples to apples comparison of costs in treating the uninsured/under-insured under today's system vs that of proposed plans has any merit? Though you've essentially answered this extremely fundamental question repeatedly, a simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice in the interest of brevity.

    In the interest of dignity and integrity, I'll just ignore the false statements you just made in ascribing to me things I've never said, implied, or done.
  18. #1878  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I am concerned about the ratio from the top to the bottom. I know we joked about Cuba the other day with a 3:1 ratio from top to bottom. That's too excessive to me. 100:1 would be more equitable than what we have now. I think teachers and doctors should be the highest paid professions to be honest.
    Sooooo.....you are concerned with the US having too many people taking risks to start businesses that become a little too successful....or maybe a sales person who works a little too hard and earns more than they should? We should raise the incomes of teachers and doctors and then maybe set that level as the "high mark" and other people couldn't earn more than that? I'm curious palandri, do you hang out with people who think like you? If so, is it an organization and would you mind telling me the name of that organization?

    Maybe it's because I live in the South, but I just don't hear this kind of talk of limiting peoples income down here. Is this a midwest/northern thing? As for doctors, I think they probably already make more than they should. It seems that many doctors have let profit get in the way of the healthcare they swore to give. I believe someone in here said the median income of physicians was $140,000.....and I again say that could easily be reduced thus saving quite a bit of money in healthcare expenses. But, we need to get doctors willing to make some sacrifices for the good of the people.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  19. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1879  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    WOW....now here's a guy that clearly had a bad day!
    No. It's the difference between someone with real skin in the game and those who treat healthcare like it's a game on their Pre.
  20. #1880  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Sooooo.....you are concerned with the US having too many people taking risks to start businesses that become a little too successful....or maybe a sales person who works a little too hard and earns more than they should?
    I think people that work should be rewarded. As I said, I believe in a planned economy, rather than an unplanned economy. In a planned economy you eliminate risk. In an unplanned economy you create risk. Are you saying that if I work my arse off for 1 hours, my labor isn't worth as much as yours because you are that much better than me? Pay you $100 an hour and pay me $10 an hour? You think that's fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I'm curious palandri, do you hang out with people who think like you? If so, is it an organization and would you mind telling me the name of that organization?
    Life is a learning experience and I believe behavior is learned. I was brought up in a blue collar, working class, union family. Organizations like the AFL-CIO have had a great influence in my life. They place a great emphasis on things like brotherhood, unity and on emphasis on "we" rather than "me".

    Let's look at one of your home boys, John Edwards. Of course he now lives in North Carolina, but he was born and raised mostly in Seneca, South Carolina. He's father was Textile Mill Worker. His mother refinished antiques and later became a Postal Worker. His brother is an Union Electrician. He's in the same Labor Union that I am, The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. Guess what we think alike!

    Here's a nightmarish thought for you. If you were brought up the same way either John Edwards or I were brought up, you'd probably be a Democrat today!
    Last edited by palandri; 09/11/2009 at 07:49 AM.
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