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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm happy for those people you seem to be refering to, but you seem to ignore the problems many have described, in many venues, articles, talk shows, blogs, etc. It appears to me that you're choosing to ignore these. So be it.
    The difference between two systems, both with problems, is that the U.S. system is heading off a cliff. It is not sustainable.

    Another very important difference is that the current U.S. system, by all measures, is providing less quality of care to it's population than most of the European systems you criticize.

    The most fundamental difference is that the U.S. system actually attempts to profit from illness.
  2. #162  
    And it is not sustainable because of the massive spending and debt that has been accumulated due to the government's inability to control itself in many areas.

    What is wrong with making a profit? Do you work in an area that makes profit? If you think it is wrong to make a profit in the health care industry, then why is it not EVIL to make a profit in your line of work?
  3. #163  
    Got you there. A bit of a back ground: my wife has lung cancer. My out of pocket expenses last year were over $5,000 for care not covered by private health insurance. I covered those expenses. Same this year - I am covering those expenses and the expenses will this year end up higher than $5,000 due to her deteriorating condition. The doctor and I make the decision, not the insurance company AND DEFINITELY NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    -who really makes the decision? Do you? Your doctor? NO - the Insurance companies and its hacks.
  4. #164  
    You just said it there - tort reform means the attorneys do not make any money. That is the problem right there - the leaches do not make money. Goodness, another Edwards not making another few millions of dollars. What a crying shame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Texas had tort reform a few years back. People that were behind the push, sold it as a much need reform that would lower costs. And Texans being well...Texans hahaha (trying to be diplomatic) fell for it hook line and sinker. Costs never came down, people with legitimate claims can't find attorneys to help them move forward because the damage caps make it a loosing proposition. So even when you win or could win, you loose. Good old frontier justice. I've read even Defense attorneys are closing up shop, since suits are dramatically down. It seems that committing malpractice is just the cost of doing business.
  5. #165  
    I wander if hospitals would rather deal with individuals or health insurance. Which is cheaper?

    So from what I read below, you gotta get rid of the coders in order to make a profit - give that to the government and it will happen. In fact, other countries...other first world countries probably kill their patients (your last paragraph).

    Quote Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
    He.

    And I carry my own malpractice insurance, too, but here's the deal: lawsuits that are truly frivolous are thrown out nearly immediately. Nearly every lawsuit I've seen or had to witness at (anyone who put their signature anywhere in the chart was subpoenaed) had at least some element of truth to it. On top of that, they aren't anywhere as common as politicians or TV shows would like to pretend. It's a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket of costs. Really, it is.

    A whole year's worth of lawsuits doesn't come close to the cost of one patient that comes in three-quarters dead with ten different comorbidities that codes on you five times a shift, ends up in a combination of septic and cardiogenic shock requiring four different vasopressors and a balloon pump just to keep blood moving, and hangs on for a week before recovering or (more likely) dying.

    I know that sounds dramatic but patients as described above are status quo in ICUs across the country weekly if not daily. There are similar costly scenarios in trauma ICUs as well, but we were discussing the importance of preventive healthcare.

    These stays cost millions and hospitals lose money even on patients with insurance. These costs must be offset somehow if we wish to continue to have hospitals, and make up the bulk of why our healthcare is overly expensive compared to other first-world nations.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    And it is not sustainable because of the massive spending and debt that has been accumulated due to the government's inability to control itself in many areas.

    What is wrong with making a profit? Do you work in an area that makes profit? If you think it is wrong to make a profit in the health care industry, then why is it not EVIL to make a profit in your line of work?
    I find it sick to make a profit off of human suffering. Illness is not an arena where things like risk and profit should be applied. Minimize costs? Sure, absolutely. But at the end of someone's severe illness the goal should not be profit.

    If you want a reason it has something to do with ethics. Anymore reason than that and I think convincing you would be a lost cause.
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Got you there. A bit of a back ground: my wife has lung cancer. My out of pocket expenses last year were over $5,000 for care not covered by private health insurance. I covered those expenses. Same this year - I am covering those expenses and the expenses will this year end up higher than $5,000 due to her deteriorating condition. The doctor and I make the decision, not the insurance company AND DEFINITELY NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
    I am sorry for the situation and hope for a full recovery.

    This option would remain even with a gov't plan.
  8. #168  
    Bujin, you speak of a public option - the problem with a public option is that the public option is government controlled. The government sets the rates, the rules, et cetera. There is no competition when the government gets involved. None at all.

    What is going to pay for this government option? My private health insurance is about to become taxable. The messiah ran heavily on the outlandish statement that 95% of Americans would not pay taxes - well, when your health insurance becomes taxable income...think about it.

    Something has to pay for this public monopoly - it really is not an option. Our health insurance is not broken, just the government programs are broken. My health insurance and costs are fine - it is the public sector programs that are broken and nothing will ever fix them. Throw as much money as YOU want and they will never get unbroken. The education system is a prime example of that.

    What you are doing is yelling and scaring people to agree with you. Costs are going up and can be controlled, but not if the government is the sole arbitrator. Competition works, government control does not. Look at eastern Europe when it comes to government control. It failed miserably.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course. We all know that those people in France, Germany, Sweden and others are just not as well informed as Americans. They can't possibly be trusted to know if they're health care system is any good, unless they are told so by the geniuses in the USA.

    The misplaced national pride that won't let us admit that maybe we can learn from other countries is what prevents any change in our system....luckily 72% of Americans now support a public option for insurance. But of course, they probably don't know any better either.

    A study in 2007 determined that 61% of home foreclosures were a direct result of medical costs. My own father lost his house when he became seriously ill. Our system is irrevocably broken - uninformed responses like "tort reform" are not an answer that will make any real improvements.
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Got you there. A bit of a back ground: my wife has lung cancer. My out of pocket expenses last year were over $5,000 for care not covered by private health insurance. I covered those expenses. Same this year - I am covering those expenses and the expenses will this year end up higher than $5,000 due to her deteriorating condition. The doctor and I make the decision, not the insurance company AND DEFINITELY NOT THE GOVERNMENT.
    Sorry to hear about your wife. Since you have health insurance, what expenses weren't covered that you had to spend $5,000.00 out of your own pocket, and another $5,000.00+ this year?
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    #170  
    Lets put personal responsibility back into healthcare. I don't want government or insurance companies telling me how to be treated.

    Insurance is supposed to be for catastrophes not everyday expenses. So pay the doctor when you have the cold or flu.

    How about a $10k deductible. No one then loses their house or has to go bankrupt.
    Marty
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  11. #171  
    My wife has lung cancer that recently spread to the liver. Bad news. During discussions with the doctor and his staff we have covered many topics such as treatment options, what happens if so and so and what tests if so and so happens. Your statement about doctors not doing tests due as a result of the possibility of a law suit just do not hold water at all - it is so full of holes that it just is not funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
    I would like to see some evidence that the standard of care is dramatically different to countries with low malpractice suit rates.

    I'm not convinced increased diagnostics are necessarily defensive compared to an actual increase in standard of care. Every headache does not require a head CT, but I think you know that.

    We've had pretty strict tort reform here in Texas, yet I've not noticed any change in standard of care or reduction of supposedly defensive healthcare.
  12. #172  
    Preventative health care means using the brain. A doctor does not need to be present in order for me to take care of myself. I get sick, see a doctor. Why pay a doctor to give me a piece of paper.
  13. #173  
    Wow. Why no money; does not the hospital allow people to make payment arrangements?

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Ok, I'll give you a real world example. Uninsured person has a cold, which gets worse and worse and develops into pneumonia which they don't treat until it becomes so acute they HAVE to seek treatment. Not having insurance and allowing the symptoms to become so severe, the person presents to an ER for treatment.

    No insurance, No Money, but the ER has to treat them.

    Now who is going to absorb that cost? All of us. The hospital will pass it on to the insured through higher fees. ALL of which could have been avoided by making sure everyone has PREVENTATIVE healthcare available.

    This scenario is repeated constantly in the U.S.daily. Ask anyone that works in an ER.
  14. #174  
    I would hate to think that you work in the health field and are lobbying for it! (bad joke).

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    All of what you just stated is part of what's known as "preventative care". And having a healthcare provider is part of getting that healthy information.
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Preventative health care means using the brain. A doctor does not need to be present in order for me to take care of myself. I get sick, see a doctor. Why pay a doctor to give me a piece of paper.
    A doctor may not be needed to do a yearly blood draw, analyze it and send me the results. A doctor may be needed should those results be out of whack to discuss reasons why and options.
  16. #176  
    At her current state, there is no recovery. The treatments are related to "quality of life" issues that are not covered by insurance. Our choice and one that we openly made. When originally diagnosed the left lung was 80% gone and the right lung was also affected. Treatments took care of the lung tumors, but damage was done by the treatment and the disease itself. The spread to the liver was expected, but not so soon. The tumor is under treatment, but other than to slow it down, there is nothing that can be done for it. Surgery is not an option due to her over-all health.

    I would like to see a system that works without hampering all of us. I just do not see the government's track record in any thing it has become involved in as being the answer.

    Thank you to each of you for words and thoughts.
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    the U.S. system actually attempts to profit from illness.
    This is what horrified me when I moved here. In the USA a sick person is a client/revenue center, in most other comparable countries a sick person is a patient.
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    You do realize there are places in the U.S. that hire a doctor to serve their communities healthcare needs?

    Crazy concept!
    Also a non sequitur. I never denied such a concept.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Wow. Why no money; does not the hospital allow people to make payment arrangements?
    The hospitals will try and bill and offer payments but more often than not, they'll realize they're not getting blood from a stone and absorb the loss and pass it on.

    So in this scenario, you've got capitalist universal health care.
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Also a non sequitur. I never denied such a concept.
    I believe you've argued against applying that concept to overall citizenry.

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