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  1. Micael's Avatar
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       #1441  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If I had to decide which was more biased, factcheck.org or someone who works for the health care industry, which would I trust?
    who asked you to decide between them? you're just being silly now Bujin. One last time. Its not what she said, or what factcheck says, or about the price of tea in london, or china.... stay with me here.... it's about what Ezekiel Emanuel says, wrote, etc. Capiche?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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       #1442  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I notice you've not commented on the John Mackey ideas that I've mentioned a couple times.
    For the record, I really like John Mackey's ideas.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #1443  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    For the record, I really like John Mackey's ideas.
    There may be hope for you yet. Now if you'd only give me that Federalist Papers reference, I'll get started on my reading assignment.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #1444  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    who asked you to decide between them? you're just being silly now Bujin. One last time. Its not what she said, or what factcheck says, or about the price of tea in london, or china.... stay with me here.... it's about what Ezekiel Emanuel says, wrote, etc. Capiche?
    Is that the doctor who said, I don’t have a car, a TV, or a house, but I have 5 cellphones?
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #1445  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Is that the doctor who said, I donít have a car, a TV, or a house, but I have 5 cellphones?
    lol. thats too funny!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #1446  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Is that the doctor who said, I don’t have a car, a TV, or a house, but I have 5 cellphones?
    Hey, palandri, you know about John Mackey? I know how much you hate those evil CEOs. Check this guy out:


    I No Longer Want to Work for Money

    From a letter sent November 2 2006 by Whole Foods Markets CEO John Mackey to his employees. On the same day, the grocery chain warned that sales growth would slow in the year ahead. Its stock dropped 23% on the news.

    To all team members,

    I want to announce a couple of significant changes regarding compensation at Whole Foods Market.

    First, as you know, we have a salary-cap policy, which limits the total cash compensation that can be paid to any team member. The board of directors has voted to raise the salary cap from 14 times the average pay to 19 times the average pay, effective immediately.... We are raising the salary cap for one reason only--to make the compensation to our executives more competitive in the marketplace.... Everyone on the Whole Foods leadership team (except for me) has been approached multiple times by "headhunters" with job offers to leave Whole Foods and go to work for our competitors. Raising the salary cap has become necessary to help ensure the retention of our key leadership.... This increase to 19 times the average pay remains far, far below what the typical Fortune 500 company pays its executives.... The average CEO received 431 times as much as their average employee received in 2004, while Whole Foods' CEO (me) received only 14 times the average employee pay in cash compensation.

    Most large companies also pay their executives large amounts of stock options in addition to large salaries and cash bonuses. The average corporation in the United States distributes 75% of their total stock options to only 5 top executives.... At Whole Foods, the exact opposite is true: The top 16 executives have received 7% of all the options granted while the other 93% of the options have been distributed throughout the entire company.

    The second part of today's announcement has to do with my own compensation.... The tremendous success of Whole Foods Market has provided me with far more money than I ever dreamed I'd have and far more than is necessary for either my financial security or personal happiness.... I am now 53 years old and I have reached a place in my life where I no longer want to work for money, but simply for the joy of the work itself and to better answer the call to service that I feel so clearly in my own heart. Beginning on January 1, 2007, my salary will be reduced to $1, and I will no longer take any other cash compensation.... The intention of the board of directors is for Whole Foods Market to donate all of the future stock options I would be eligible to receive to our two company foundations.

    One other important item to communicate to you is, in light of my decision to forego any future [pay], our board of directors has decided that Whole Foods Market will contribute $100,000 annually to a new Global Team Member Emergency Fund. This money will be distributed to team members throughout the company based on need.... The first $100,000 will be deposited on January 1, 2007, and requests will be considered after that date.

    With much love,
    John Mackey
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1447  
    Hello Again,

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So "principles" include calling a health plan a Nazi plan? Lying about death panels? You consider that just talking about what the proper role of government is? And are they as well informed as you about the relative role of the government in funding medical research? Actually, the right wing isn't stupid, just "misinformed". I've never seen so many people talking eruditely about issues that they know nothing about whatsoever. Instead of ignorant, I'll just use misinformed. How many of you opponents to health care reform have participated in any way in the health care system? Just Micael, who apparently has disappeared because he still cannot identify any kind of plan to solve our problem, and has difficulty seeing past his own self-interest. Do you think that just because you hold political views about the constitution or don't like Obama that your perspective is rational at all? You are pushing political arguments to support your political position...which has no bearing whatsoever on the delivery of health care. The discussion is truly absurd. Why don't some of you people spend some time trying to do some neurosurgery? You're as qualified to do that as you are to be making pronouncements about what health care should entail. What a huge waste of time this discussion is. Lots of heat and no illumination whatsoever.

    First, you are putting words in my mouth. I did not equate the tiny minority of people who are making extreme statements with those who are talking about principles, and it is extremely dishonest for you or media parrots to be promoting that as if it represents the overall attitude of people who are opposed to this government health care.

    That's a typical response however--to attempt to paint those who disagree with you as some sort of cartoonish villain.

    How many opponents of health care reform have worked in healthcare? I don't know--I suspect as many as who support it. How many politicians who are supposedly fixing these problems are healthcare professionals, or know the first thing about healthcare? Oh, right, almost none of them.

    My perspective is perfectly rational--you just (apparently--I say apparently because you've made zero actual points) disagree with me. In fact, I'm not pushing any sort of politics--I'm trying to talk about reasonable solutions and areas of compromise.

    In short--what you are saying is that since I am not a healthcare professional, I can't have a view on how my government works in regard to health care. To be honest--that's not an argument that makes much sense to me.

    You have not a single clue about what my qualifications may or may not be--you are simply running your mouth, attacking the right of someone to have and express an opinion you dislike. That isn't very constructive.

    I guess according to your way of thinking, people should only be involved in discussions in fields they work in. So, no more anti-war protestors, unless you are in the military. No one can talk about education unless you are a teacher.

    In reality however, I (and to my knowledge no one else) am not attempting to tell doctors how to perform their jobs. I'm not attempting to tell someone how to perform neurosurgery. The actual issue at hand is government--which, in case you forgot or never learned, is there to serve the people--to represent the people. This is after all a government that derives its power from the people, and if you think that's a political statement...well, not really, its just the foundation of our entire nation.

    So it is ok for politicians to attempt to revise the entire health care system (even though only a handful are medical professionals), but its not ok for citizens to voice their opinions, or actually be represented.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 08/20/2009 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Additional points, made more friendly
  8. #1448  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Hello Again,
    First, you are putting words in my mouth....
    Second, you need to relax and stop taking things so personal.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  9. #1449  
    Okay.....let me get this straight:

    Obama's health care plan will be
    written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it,
    passed by a Congress that hasn't read it,
    signed by a president who smokes,
    funded by a treasury chief who did not pay his taxes,
    overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and
    financed by a country that is nearly broke.
    What could possibly go wrong?

    Sounds good to me!
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  10. #1450  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Okay.....let me get this straight:

    Obama's health care plan will be
    written by a committee whose head says he doesn't understand it,
    passed by a Congress that hasn't read it,
    signed by a president who smokes,
    funded by a treasury chief who did not pay his taxes,
    overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and
    financed by a country that is nearly broke.
    What could possibly go wrong?

    Sounds good to me!
    Sounds like we have your vote!

    I still think that starting a new thread on College Football is a good idea.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1451  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Second, you need to relax and stop taking things so personal.
    Telling someone not to put words in my mouth is "taking it personal"? I'm afraid you are misreading my level of agitation--I'm perfectly calm, although perplexed. I think it is pretty important to avoid letting people improperly attribute things to me, which is what that poster did.

    I didn't say a word about nazi's or anything of the sort, and I've got this person asserting that I'm somehow supporting this. That's really dishonest.

    In the spirit of getting along, I've edited my earlier post to remove comments that were...unkind.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 08/20/2009 at 08:53 PM. Reason: Additional Point.
  12. #1452  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Telling someone not to put words in my mouth is "taking it personal"? I'm afraid you are misreading my level of agitation--I'm perfectly calm, although perplexed. I think it is pretty important to avoid letting people improperly attribute things to me, which is what that poster did.

    I didn't say a word about nazi's or anything of the sort, and I've got this person asserting that I'm somehow supporting this. That's really dishonest.

    In the spirit of getting along, I've edited my earlier post to remove comments that were...unkind.

    KAM
    I saw you edited it: Additional points, made more friendly

    ...and I thank you!
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  13. #1453  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Telling someone not to put words in my mouth is "taking it personal"? I'm afraid you are misreading my level of agitation--I'm perfectly calm, although perplexed. I think it is pretty important to avoid letting people improperly attribute things to me, which is what that poster did.

    I didn't say a word about nazi's or anything of the sort, and I've got this person asserting that I'm somehow supporting this. That's really dishonest.

    KAM
    Kam....get used to that in here. Palandri likes to stir the pot and is from Chicago (you know how Chicago politics are) while bujin and zelgo just seem to be The doc is okay....he just suffers from "god syndrome" that a lot of physicians suffer from. You know, he can save lives, he is all powerful, he is smarter than everyone. After awhile you figure these things out.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  14. #1454  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Second, you need to relax and stop taking things so personal.
    Physician, heal thyself.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #1455  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Kam....get used to that in here. Palandri likes to stir the pot and is from Chicago (you know how Chicago politics are) while bujin and zelgo just seem to be The doc is okay....he just suffers from "god syndrome" that a lot of physicians suffer from. You know, he can save lives, he is all powerful, he is smarter than everyone. After awhile you figure these things out.
    That's why we all like you clem!
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1456  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Don't believe what drug companies want you to believe. See Marcia Angell's The Truth about Drug Companies The Truth About the Drug Companies - The New York Review of Books. Angell is a previous editor for the new england journal of medicine.
    I had a chance to read some of that.

    I'm not really a fan of drug companies. I don't think it is quite ethical to advertise something that is a necessity directly to consumers, when a diagnosis is really required. It seems to me that a Doctor should determine the problem, and then prescribe the proper drug (if necessary). Advertising for prescription medication as if it is laundry soap doesn't make sense to me.

    I read in that link that it said that academia, the NIH and small biotech companies provided much of the actual research. Do you know the breakdown here? Just for my personal information.

    To reiterate what I stated before, following your initial response was that all of this is funded ultimately by "profit" of some kind. Individual taxpayers, and businesses pay taxes which are allocated by the government (in the case of NIH, and public academic institutions). My point was intended to really deal with the ultimate source of the money, but I mistakenly wandered into which entity currently produces the most research. I'm happy to acknowledge good information on that, but even so...it isn't really key to my point.

    Still--I'd like to hear what the split is between academia, NIH and private small biotech.

    KAM
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1457  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Kam....get used to that in here. Palandri likes to stir the pot and is from Chicago (you know how Chicago politics are) while bujin and zelgo just seem to be The doc is okay....he just suffers from "god syndrome" that a lot of physicians suffer from. You know, he can save lives, he is all powerful, he is smarter than everyone. After awhile you figure these things out.
    Yeah...I'm sure I will figure it all out very soon.
    A doctor...really?

    Palandri: Oh, I aim to please.

    KAM
  18. #1458  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    That's why we all like you clem!
    Oh stop it....I bet you say that to all Conservative Clemson fans!
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  19. #1459  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    A doctor...really?
    Just to be clear, davidra is who he's referring to as 'the doc'. Palandri is an electrician. Hmm... in retrospect, 'Electrician, heal thyself' would have been funnier.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #1460  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Just to be clear, davidra is who he's referring to as 'the doc'. Palandri is an electrician. Hmm... in retrospect, 'Electrician, heal thyself' would have been funnier.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton

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