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  1. #1381  
    Zelgo, the descriptive words socialist, Marxist and death panels are real to this discussion. As for Nazi - why not look at Nancy for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Really? So what's your alternate plan?

    Why is everyone yelling out words like Socialist, Marxist, Nazi, death panels, and "your plan sucks"--instead of discussing alternatives?

    Let me guess, you don't really have one.
  2. #1382  
    Zelgo, those people showing up at Barney's townhall did comprise many of the people that put him office and they did something rarely done before - they put him on the spot and openly exposed the lies he espouses. He responded with his typical responses of attacking them instead of answering the questions. It really bothers me how openly you call people who disagree with you stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    You are the perfect example of the uninformed consumer that we see marauding around at townhalls calling people NAZIs.

    Medicare is that evil "government run healthcare." You can change your provider at any time. Die early? Medicare is paying up to 1/3 on the last two weeks of life--which means it's doing everything it can to keep you alive.

    Those people who showed up at Barney's townhall didn't comprise all his constituents. There were alot of stupid, easily confused people there--scared by lies of nazism and death panels.

    Do you really want a Congressman to base his vote on what the crazies think?
  3. #1383  
    Could it be that this country is too large for government run and controlled health care to succeed? Look at those in the Nordic areas - much smaller populations and of course their tax rate - they eventually gave up and joined the other sheepel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    False. Simple math. You can't add 50 million people to a program that's already failing and NOT ration based on cost.

    By definition Medicare will no longer exits. And your system sucks. How do I know? Everywhere it's implemented, it sucks. Why do you think Canada has significantly higher cancer deaths than the US, Zelgo?
  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #1384  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    You may not agree but health policy experts do--in measure after measure of healthcare quality (like lifespan, infant mortality, access to healthcare, cost of care, etc) they are all way above the US.
    Like this health care expert?

    Ten reasons why America’s health care system is in better condition than you might suppose.
    By Scott W. Atlas.
    ----------------

    Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers, and academics beat the drum for a far larger government role in health care. Much of the public assumes that their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. Before we turn to government as the solution, however, we should consider some unheralded facts about America’s health care system.

    1. Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the United Kingdom and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

    2. Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality in Canada is 9 percent higher than in the United States, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher, and colon cancer among men is about 10 percent higher.

    3. Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit from statin drugs, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, are taking them. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons, and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

    4. Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate, and colon cancer:

    • Nine out of ten middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to fewer than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
    • Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a Pap smear, compared to fewer than 90 percent of Canadians.
    • More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a prostatespecific antigen (PSA) test, compared to fewer than one in six Canadians (16 percent).
    • Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with fewer than one in twenty Canadians (5 percent).


    5. Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report “excellent” health (11.7 percent) compared to Canadian seniors (5.8 percent). Conversely, white, young Canadian adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower-income Americans to describe their health as “fair or poor.”

    6. Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long—sometimes more than a year—to see a specialist, have elective surgery such as hip replacements, or get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In Britain, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

    7. People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.”

    8. Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the “health care system,” more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared with only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

    9. Americans have better access to important new technologies such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain. An overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identify computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade—even as economists and policy makers unfamiliar with actual medical practice decry these techniques as wasteful. The United States has thirty-four CT scanners per million Americans, compared to twelve in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has almost twenty-seven MRI machines per million people compared to about six per million in Canada and Britain.

    10. Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other developed country. Since the mid- 1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past thirty-four years did a scientist living in the United States not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

    Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and care for the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Scott W. Atlas is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a professor of radiology and chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical School


    --------------(pawned)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #1385  
    President Gerald Ford said in an address to a joint session of Congress on August 12, 1974, "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."

    When are people like Zelgo going to wake up.
  6. #1386  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    This really is a loaded question that begs context. Exchange the word "good" with the word "rights" and you'll see what I mean.
    Yes, it is a loaded question, but loaded for a specific purpose. The two of you are discussing an absurd premise.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #1387  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    President Gerald Ford said in an address to a joint session of Congress on August 12, 1974, "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."

    When are people like Zelgo going to wake up.
    Nothing against Gerald Ford, but that quote is originally from Thomas Jefferson. Another one of my favorites of his is:

    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.€Thomas Jefferson

    Folks like Zelgo really don't believe the Constitution is a good document, so he is not going to agree with men such as Thomas Jefferson on any such ideas. It was either Zelgo or Bujin who told me on here that the Constitution was written by wealthy white slave owning land owners, so, it basically shouldn't be taken very seriously (I paraphrased what he said, but that is pretty close). By the way, yes I know, TJ wasn't a direct writer of the Constitution (that would be the Declaration of Independence) as he was out of the country at the time, but did help with thoughts on it via letters. Those crazy white, slave owning land owners, what a bunch of lumps on a log, huh? Man....if only those idiots hadn't existed back then.....boy.....we can only wonder what this country would be like!
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  8. Micael's Avatar
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       #1388  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Do you really want a Congressman to base his vote on what the crazies think?
    If they're the ones that put him in office.... yeah. That's why he's there.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1389  
    Bring on those informative posts about how much better Canada's system is than ours, Zelgo. We're waiting.

    Posted: Aug. 20, 2009
    Canadians visit U.S. to get health care
    Deal lets many go to Michigan hospitals
    BY PATRICIA ANSTETT
    FREE PRESS MEDICAL WRITER

    Hospitals in border cities, including Detroit, are forging lucrative arrangements with Canadian health agencies to provide care not widely available across the border.

    Agreements between Detroit hospitals and the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care for heart, imaging tests, bariatric and other services provide access to some services not immediately available in the province, said ministry spokesman David Jensen.

    The agreements show how a country with a national care system -- a proposal not part of the health care changes under discussion in Congress -- copes with demand for care with U.S. partnerships, rather than building new facilities.

    Michael Vujovich, 61, of Windsor was taken to Detroit's Henry Ford Hospital for an angioplasty procedure after he went to a Windsor hospital in April. Vujovich said the U.S. backup doesn't show a gap in Canada's system, but shows how it works.

    "I go to the hospital in Windsor and two hours later, I'm done having angioplasty in Detroit," he said. His $38,000 bill was covered by the Ontario health ministry.

    Canada eyed in the health care debate

    Dany Mercado, a leukemia patient from Kitchener, Ontario, is cancer-free after getting a bone marrow transplant at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute in Detroit.

    Told by Canadian doctors in 2007 he couldn't have the procedure there, Mercado's family and doctor appealed to Ontario health officials, who agreed to let him have the transplant in Detroit in January 2008.

    The Karmanos Institute is one of several Detroit health facilities that care for Canadians needing services not widely available in Canada.

    Canada, for example, has waiting times for bariatric procedures to combat obesity that can stretch to more than five years, according to a June report in the Canadian Journal of Surgery.

    As a result, the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care in April designated 13 U.S. hospitals, including five in Michigan and one more with a tentative designation, to perform bariatric surgery for Canadians.

    The agreements provide "more immediate services for patients whose health is at risk," Jensen said.

    Three Windsor-area hospitals have arrangements with Henry Ford Hospital, Detroit, to provide backup, after-hours angioplasty. Authorities will clear Detroit-Windsor Tunnel traffic for ambulances, if necessary. The Detroit Medical Center also provides Canadians complex trauma, cancer, neonatal and other care.

    "In the last few years, we've seen more and more Canadian patients," said Dr. J. Edson Pontes, senior vice president of international medicine at the DMC. They include Canadians such as Mercado, whose care is reimbursed by Canada's health system, as well as people who pay out of pocket to avoid waiting in Canada.

    Pontes declined to give revenue figures for the DMC's international business, but said the program "always has been a profitable entity." About 300 of the DMC's 400 international patients last year came from Canada, he said.

    Tony Armada, chief executive officer of Henry Ford Hospital, said the hospital received $1 million for cardiac care alone.

    Critics of a health care system like Canada's -- a publicly funded system that pays for medically necessary care determined by provinces -- often cite gaps in Canada's care to argue that the United States should not allow its current debate over health care to move it to a socialized system.

    No plan currently under discussion in Congress calls for a universal plan like Canada's, but opponents fear socialized medicine, anyway.

    Canada's U.S. backup care "speaks volumes to why we don't need government to take over health care," Scott Hagerstrom, the state director in Michigan for Americans for Prosperity, said of the Canadian arrangements with Michigan hospitals. "Their system doesn't work if they have to send us their patients."

    But Dr. Uwe Reinhardt, a Princeton University health economist who has studied the U.S. and Canadian health systems, said arrangements with cities like Detroit "are a terrific way to manage capacity" given Canada's smaller health care budget.

    "This is efficient," he said. "At least in Canada, you don't worry about going broke to pay for health care. You do here."

    Pat Somers, vice president of operations at Windsor's Hotel-Dieu Grace Hospital, one of the hospitals that sends patients to Henry Ford, said the issue of finding ways to pay for and prioritize care requests is not in only Windsor.

    "The ministries are quite aware of" waits for care in Sarnia and Hamilton, she said. "That's why we are investing in a wait list strategy" to best determine how to prioritize cases for people who need hip and knee replacements, cataract surgery and treatment for cancer, for example.

    Mercado, 26, faced a longer wait because he could not find a matching blood donor, even though his family conducted a broad search.

    He said doctors told him money was limited for transplants, particularly ones using unmatched donors, which are riskier.

    After his family's doctor wrote the Ontario ministry, the agency agreed to pay $200,000 for the operation.

    The family, their church and Mercado's school, Conestoga College in Kitchener, raised another $51,000 to cover expenses going back and forth to Detroit.

    "I think of this every day as a gift from God," Mercado said.
    ###
    Contact PATRICIA ANSTETT: 313-222-5021 or panstett@freepress.com
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #1390  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    What Cook neglects to remind us is that the cost per beneficiary going to always be higher for Medicare--Medicare deals with America's sickest patients.
    You're completely ignoring that he's only comparing administrative costs, not total cost. If they're dealing with total cost, obviously sicker people are going to cost more to care for. That's his entire point in saying that administrative cost compared to total expenditure is not an apples to apples comparison. Cost per beneficiary on processing claims seems to be a fair comparison, since they are dealing with different populations. You can't use the total cost as a positive and a handicap.
    Cook uses a double standard when it comes to Medicare. We congratulate private companies when they achieve low overhead.
    We don't congratulate private companies for having low overhead unless it is compared to something meaningful.
    We don't look at overhead/widget, we look at overhead overall.
    Overhead overall is meaningless without context. If you are looking at a manufacturing business, you may very well look at overhead per unit vs revenue per unit as one measure of how successful a company is compared to another.
    This is the whole point of economies of scale--the more you make the same product, the less it will cost.
    This is true in many circumstances up to a point. However, there are some cases where you hit a hard limit on how little it will cost per unit. There are also diseconomies of scale, where the size of a company/entity will negatively impact its cost of doing business.
    The minute someone is unhappy with the constant reminder that Medicare's overhead percentage is lower than private insurance's, we look for the unit of measure which will show that it isn't so. In this case, Cook chose the obvious one--cost per beneficiary. Since the price per beneficiary is ALWAYS going to be higher for Medicare, it creates at Straw Man argument.
    Not the total expenditure per beneficiary. The total administrative expenditure per beneficiary. If you're going to create your own straw man to refute a legitimate argument, we're back to wasting each other's time.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #1391  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Really? So what's your alternate plan?

    Why is everyone yelling out words like Socialist, Marxist, Nazi, death panels, and "your plan sucks"--instead of discussing alternatives?

    Let me guess, you don't really have one.
    I pointed out some proposals presented by John Mackey that I found quite reasonable.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #1392  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    If they're the ones that put him in office.... yeah. That's why he's there.
    I realize I'm not a constitutional scholar and hence my opinions don't count for much, but this is not exactly how the representative republic we supposedly have was designed to work. Representatives were supposed to be elected for their judgment, not their ability to parrot the whims of the majority. The US system was designed to try and protect the rights and freedoms of the majority while protecting the rights and freedoms of the minority.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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       #1393  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Exposed the lies? What lies? The claims that there are no death panels in the bill? You need to get your news from someone other than Sarah Palin.

    When Barney shot back at that lady who called it a "Nazi" healthplan--she was just repeating what the conservative talking heads fed her--he was right. Talking to her would be like talking to a dining room table.

    It's funny that everyone afraid of this bill's "government takeover" is really afraid of the cutting of Medicare--a government program. no, it doesn't make much sense, does it?

    If you believe what the talking heads have been making up--yes, you are stupid.
    So once again, rather than address her question, you belittle and call her a crazy so you don't have to.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #1394  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So far big government has worked to save us from this looming depression, healthcare costs for the elderly and poor (medicare and medicaid), poverty when we're old (Social Security), etc.

    The Fed only has to step in when the private world has failed--and in these cases, the private world has failed miserably.

    That quote from Ford gave me a chuckle. He was such a great president, you know.

    And for someone who hates big gov so much, are you going to give up your Medicare and Social Security when they start? My guess? You'll be first in line.
    Not Ford.....TJ. As for being in line....in 20 years....they likely won't be around.....certainly not planning on it. Social Security should be raised on the start age anyway if they want to save it....maybe 75 at a minimum. But I will agree that if they are around, I'll be accepting them since the government was kind enough to deduct "contributions" for them. Is that wrong to accept something you've paid for? Now, if they will allow me to opt out....keep my tax dollars....I mean "contributions", I will strongly consider that. Can you pull some strings on that???? Please?
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       #1395  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I realize I'm not a constitutional scholar and hence my opinions don't count for much, but this is not exactly how the representative republic we supposedly have was designed to work. Representatives were supposed to be elected for their judgment, not their ability to parrot the whims of the majority. The US system was designed to try and protect the rights and freedoms of the majority while protecting the rights and freedoms of the minority.
    Wrong. At least, for the House. They're supposed to have their thumbs on our pulse. Maybe its a bit more like you say for the Senate. But in either case, simply by being elected, you don't automatically become smarter and wiser than your constituents. You were elected to Represent them so that their concerns and feelings will be HEARD in Washington. And to bring back some pork, as it were....

    This is why people get voted out of office. This is why the Republican's are a dying political party in both the House and Senate. They haven't listened to the people they that voted them in.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1396  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Exposed the lies? What lies?
    How about the lies of yours that I exposed? I haven't heard a response yet to my two posts:

    Ten reasons why America’s health care system is in better condition than you might suppose.

    Or

    Canadians visit U.S. to get health care

    Maybe it's because I blew your MYTHS out of the water?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #1397  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I said that the Constitution isn't a good document? I said it shouldn't be taken seriously?

    Oh, now I understand how you can get death panels from physician end-of-life counseling...
    Actually....from your post # 1219 (check it out) you wrote:

    "This actually goes to the heart of my point. The Constitution was written as if land-owning, white men were the only people that mattered in this country. The "rights" were all for them."

    As I said, I paraphrased it as I didn't go searching for your quote....but the interpretation is certainly that a document written by "land-owning, white men" who only wanted "rights" for them seems to translate into a document you don't think very highly of. Or does it depend on what the definition of "is" is?

    Seriously....post # 1219....go check
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       #1398  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    She didn't have a question.
    Question, concern, point.... you duck and weave

    I bet you don't even know what she said.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. Micael's Avatar
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       #1399  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    People yelling at a townhall don't represent a majority opinion of a whole district. If a representative votes based on that small number, he/she isn't doing the right job. In fact, there is no way to know if the people at the townhalls are really constituents or hacks brought in from elsewhere to disrupt.
    So those people are not to be listened to or their issues and questions addressed. Gotcha.

    We're talking what.... 13 months till the next elections?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #1400  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    So will you stop taking social security after it has paid you more than you put in? I don't think so. What will you be relying on? You're growing and growing 401K--the private world's attempt at retirement savings?
    I'm relying on my 401k and other investments. I probably will take the Social Security that I paid into, providing there's anything left after the boomers get their hands on it. I'll use it to buy a nice lunch every month.

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