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  1. #121  
    Anyone who thinks tort reform will magically fix or even make a significant dent into costs of the current system must have not spent any time in a hospital since 1960.


    /icu nurse
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I disagree. Why should I go to a doctor, take his/her time when nothing is wrong? Does not make sense at all.
    You don't understand what is meant by preventive or maintenance care.

    Let's do a little comparison on costs.

    Three scenarios, same patient:

    Pt: your typical 65 year old type II diabetic:

    Scenario one: excellent preventive and maintenance care: Pt receives HgBa1C screening every three months, routine appointments with registered dieticians specializing in diabetes, appointments with diabetic educator RNs-- including homes visits if necessary-- to go over management tailored to the patient, and optimal medication management from a healthcare provider that has the time to thoroughly review the patient and their progress.

    This is an ideal and doesn't happen, at least without a ton of insurance and/or cash.

    Scenario two: current reality for most with insurance: brief appointments with no followup except for the next appointment 6+ months later, a tri-fold pamphlet on diet, prescriptions for medication with no plan or followup to make sure medications are working (or pt is able to adequately obtain and use them) until the next visit 6+ months later. Patient inevitably succumbs to chronic renal failure in addition to other typical comorbidities and requires life-long outpatient dialysis.

    Scenario three: those who are underinsured or no insurance: no management or poor self management, frequent ER trips for hyperglycemic hyperosmotic non-ketotic states and/or acute-on-chronic renal failure-- both of which typically require ICU admissions just to stabilize. That's not including all the comorbidities that go along with it.

    I can tell you that scenario three is frighteningly common and that lengthy ICU stays are not cheap. Our hospital, non-profit as it is, can only afford so many charity cases and therefore the bulk of these patient's stays are passed along to others via higher overall fees.

    Scenario one, despite the fact it may be a bit idealistic, makes things cheaper for everybody.
  3. #123  
    The problem, IMO, is that no one actually wants to discuss things and fix the system. People just want to advance their own ready-made agenda (or own ready-made opposition). For example, what would it cost to provide X level of care for every person? If we provide X level of care, how do we ensure compliance with 'doctor's orders' (or that regular visits will be attended)?

    In the above example, can you actually put a number on each scenario?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Actually your statement on this is 180 degrees off reality. By providing preventative care you avoid the situation of a person waiting until they are acutely ill and presenting at an ER. That's exactly a huge part of the current problem with the existing system.
    Wait what? By encouraging people to eat better, drink less, smoke less, and exercise more will lead to more problems in the ER?
  5. JC Strat's Avatar
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    #125  
    I went to get passports renewed for my kids a week ago. I had off of work so my wife and I could both present them to the government workers.

    I printed all of the forms, having filled in all fields on the .pdf files to expedite our service.

    We arrived and there were no other customers. The government worker hangs up her obviously personal phone call and says we need an appointment to see her. She refuses to let me make an appointment, telling me that I need to call later. When I do, I get a 2 week waiting time. I can not get off of work and both parents must be present to get a child a passport.

    I look forward to this same level of service when I am paying for healthcare through my taxes. So-called ratings of health systems are created with the sole agenda of making the usa look bad. How about quality of care indicators like how long it takes to get a defibrillator, hip replacement, or MRI if you need one? Oh no, the usa would be #1 in such a study, so lets use some other parameter instead to further increase government interference in our lives.

    The government is not accountable. You cannot personally fire the government like you can an insurer. The us government is run by lobbiests and special interests. We should be searching for ways to limit federal power, not increase it. Politicians are not nice, ethical, or reasonable normal people.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Has anyone from another country posted, stating that our health care system is better than their's?
    yes
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    yes
    Please enlighten us,
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  8. Micael's Avatar
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       #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Besides pointing to the obvious statistics of healthcare satisfaction in other countries which have already been pointed to in this thread and contradict your above statement and to which you replied you don't want to play post the most links....
    huh? I don't get you. I didn't contradict anything. I asked you a direct question, not for statistics. (which I actually haven't seen any pointing to cheerful happy people in other countries, but if you say so...)
    Those other countries are complete democracies and I find it very difficult to stomach the idea that the citizens of those countries are incapable of making the changes they see needed by ballot in the past several decades.
    complete democracies? I guess you're saying that they could change their system, and since they haven't, they must be happy. well here we are in a democracy, you're unhappy apparently. and it ain't happened yet. I kinda doubt that it will.
    So please, stop with the BS fantasy that people under European gov't health care are miserable and dying in the streets.
    lol. jeez louis, but you are a card! when did I act so melodramatic? Just answer the questions, and please leave off the feeble attacks. ty
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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       #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Ummmmmm, Medicare and Medicaid come to mind.

    which are full of waste and abuse and constantly running in the red, well Medicaid at least....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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       #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Please enlighten us,
    Right... you want me to go back through the thread and find you a post you missed... lol. Ok, hang on.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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       #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The problem, IMO, is that no one actually wants to discuss things and fix the system. People just want to advance their own ready-made agenda (or own ready-made opposition). For example, what would it cost to provide X level of care for every person? If we provide X level of care, how do we ensure compliance with 'doctor's orders' (or that regular visits will be attended)?

    In the above example, can you actually put a number on each scenario?
    who do you mean by "no one"? the politicians?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Right... you want me to go back through the thread and find you a post you missed... lol. Ok, hang on.
    Well, I only recall the one referring to our system as a "criminal operation"...was that the one you interpreted as pro-American? Because that wasn't a compliment.

    I can understand why you don't want to back up assertions with facts or data - unfortunately that's not that uncommon in conservative political debate.
    Last edited by Bujin; 06/25/2009 at 11:10 PM.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by zhackwyatt View Post
    Wait what? By encouraging people to eat better, drink less, smoke less, and exercise more will lead to more problems in the ER?
    You don't understand. People are sheep and need to be told by the liberal experts on how to live healthy lives.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post

    complete democracies? I guess you're saying that they could change their system, and since they haven't, they must be happy. well here we are in a democracy, you're unhappy apparently. and it ain't happened yet. I kinda doubt that it will.
    You seem confused by the survey data that actually showed that people in these other countries are simplyly happier with their systems than we are with ours. You seem intent to assert that they are very unhappy, but don't back it up with anything. .

    Simple rule for any debate: if you don't have data as a backup, you're just another guy with an opinion.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

    Treo600 --> Treo650-->PPC6700-->Treo700P-->Treo755P-->Treo800W --> Touch Pro-->Palm Pre --> EVO 4G
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You seem confused by the survey data that actually showed that people in these other countries are actually happier with their systems than we are with ours. You seem intent to assert that they are very unhappy, but don't back it up with anything. Saying it doesn't make it so.
    When did I act confused? And I asserted no such thing. I've asserted that there were problems. You seem to enjoy pointing to things I've "seemed" to do, but have never in fact.... done. Point to one persons post isn't the same. You and daThomas like to infer a lot of things that haven't occurred. I know, you both choose your language carefully so it just "seems" that way.

    I'm happy for those people you seem to be refering to, but you seem to ignore the problems many have described, in many venues, articles, talk shows, blogs, etc. It appears to me that you're choosing to ignore these. So be it.

    Regardless, I never said that our system doesn't need some serious work.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    when did I act so melodramatic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...and we all know how well the rest of the industrialized world's healthcare systems run. Not.

    So who will decide when and how your mother will die, daThomas? You? Your mother? Or some government hack?
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I work for one of these evil healthcare insurance companies. It's not for profit. I can assure you that this company takes the health of its customers as it's number one priority.


    Seemed a weee bit dramatic to me. almost brought tears to my eyes.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  17. Micael's Avatar
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       #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post


    Seemed a weee bit dramatic to me. almost brought tears to my eyes.
    You edited my words. How lame is that?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You edited my words. How lame is that?
    So highlighting is editing? I didn't know. I'm sorry.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  19. anthillmob's Avatar
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    #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, I only recall the one referring to our system as a "criminal operation"...was that the one you interpreted as pro-American? Because that wasn't a compliment.

    I can understand why you don't want to back up assertions with facts or data - unfortunately that's not that uncommon in conservative political debate.
    Micael is of course right, and I would be the person from another country who posted to say the US system is better. In fact, I will go further than that. I have first hand knowledge of health care in 5 countries, including 3 of the wonderful "complete" democracies of Europe so many people are holding up as wonderful. In short they suck. That the people claim to be happier with their health care (assuming the statistics you mention are any good) is not a reflection of a better system, but of people not knowing any better. And of course a lot of people in these countries think their health care is free, so tend to look more favourably on it.
  20. #140  
    How can one be happy with a medical system that takes weeks to get a routine appointment, weeks/months for a routine surgery? Maybe because they do not know any better. If you go to your doctor, betcha you get what needs to be done real quick - no waiting list. Is that the same elsewhere you are inferring about where people are happy with their care?

    Medicaid? Medicare? Failures - so much debt and to think there are people who think the government can handle health insurance. Really now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You seem confused by the survey data that actually showed that people in these other countries are simplyly happier with their systems than we are with ours. You seem intent to assert that they are very unhappy, but don't back it up with anything. .

    Simple rule for any debate: if you don't have data as a backup, you're just another guy with an opinion.

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