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  1. #1361  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do you remember how many times Kirk threw that logic back in Spocks face and... proved... him.... wrong? (he said in his best James T voice)
    You'd both make horrible Vulcans (so would the guy who wrote the script). Whether the good of the many outweigh the good of the few or the one is a premise. It's not a logical conclusion. Even if we were to accept it as a self-evident premise, how does it apply to health care? Who are the many: the ~84% that already have insurance coverage or the ~16% that don't?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #1362  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    In actuality, the answer is quite easy. You just won't like it. Along with negotiating reasonable drug prices, minimizing fraud, decreasing unnecessary procedures, goes the next aspect: increasing our taxes.

    We have one of the lowest personal tax rates in the world. (Link

    We also have pretty good income compared to the rest of the world. Maybe we need to put a little more into the kitty so we can have insurance that doesn't go away when we change jobs, or develop a condition, or we get fired. And it would also help businesses who no longer would be forced to provide for their employees. But generally we are too selfish to actually do this. It's a cultural thing.
    Well....if you are now saying that EVERYONE's taxes will need to go up.....I will agree with you there. But, that is not what Obama is saying. He is still saying no one with income of $250,000 or less (which is me, by the way) will have to pay one more dime in taxes....do you know something that I don't know in regards to this?

    You seem quite certain that the savings will come, and I know that doctors don't like to be challenged, but, what if you're wrong (gulp). What if the savings that you think will occur, don't occur? Then what? Raise taxes more so that we can now be listed near the top of personal income taxes paid? It's funny...and again this is just the difference between liberals and conservatives...but I look at it as good that we have one of the lower personal income tax rates in the world while you seem to look at this as a badge of shame....like....look at how much more money we could raise if we just tax everyone more! Whoohoooo! By the way, and I may be wrong on this, but not sure if that chart you had the link for includes state tax, social security, local, and property tax.

    But again.....just silly talk in here to bring up cost because it seems to be a non-issue.
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  3. #1363  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    This "discussion" has become totally useless, in my opinion, because let's face it.....it ain't changing the opinions on either side....
    Agreed!

    Time to start a new thread.

    Now with College Football just around the corner, we need to take a close hard look at BCS rankings.

    Clemson got 40 votes, but is still not in the top 25. Clemson takes on Georgia Tech on 9/10 and Boston College on 9/19. If Clemson beats both Georgia Tech and Boston College, they would have to be voted into the top 25.
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  4. #1364  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Agreed!

    Time to start a new thread.

    Now with College Football just around the corner, we need to take a close hard look at BCS rankings.

    Clemson got 40 votes, but is still not in the top 25. Clemson takes on Georgia Tech on 9/10 and Boston College on 9/19. If Clemson beats both Georgia Tech and Boston College, they would have to be voted into the top 25.
    Okay...now you're talking! What is your college team Palandri? Would it be a wild guess to say Illinois? How they looking this year?
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  5. #1365  
    Well, if you didn't like my increasing your taxes, you sure as hell won't like this. I'm a Gator.

    I don't think it's a badge of shame at all that we have low taxes. I'd love to be able to apply all the money that's been wasted in the past 8 years and apply it to health care. That would minimize the tax increases. I do also think that everyone should pay a share of this, not just those in high brackets.

    And if you don't like it, I'll call my friend Tim Tebow and have him kick your ***.
  6. #1366  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Well, if you didn't like my increasing your taxes, you sure as hell won't like this. I'm a Gator.

    And if you don't like it, I'll call my friend Tim Tebow and have him kick your ***.
    Teebow da man. Gators are loaded....at least you guys couldn't steal Spiller from us Tigers got plenty of question marks but the Gators are loaded!
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  7. Micael's Avatar
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       #1367  
    For me, at least, it ain't a dead thread until the Public Option, or any of its possible upcoming variants, are dead as well.

    ObamaCare's Contradictions
    The President does both sides now on his health insurance plan.

    20 August 2009
    Associated Press

    Over the past week, President Obama has held three town-halls to make the case for his health-care plan. While he didn't say much that he hasn't said a thousand times before, his remarks did offer another explanation for the public's skepticism of ObamaCare. Namely, the President contradicts himself every other breath. Consider:

    He likes to start off explaining our catastrophe of a health system. "What is truly scary—what is truly risky—is if we do nothing," he said in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. We can't "keep the system the way it is right now," he continued, while his critics are "people who want to keep things the way they are." (*edit: not true. just people who don't want your plan. we all know it needs to change)

    However, his supporters also want to keep things the way they are. "I keep on saying this but somehow folks aren't listening," Mr. Obama proclaimed in Grand Junction, Colorado. "If you like your health-care plan, you keep your health-care plan. Nobody is going to force you to leave your health-care plan. If you like your doctor, you keep seeing your doctor. I don't want government bureaucrats meddling in your health care."

    Mr. Obama couldn't be more opposed to "some government takeover," as he put it in Belgrade, Montana. In New Hampshire, he added that people were wrong to worry "that somehow some government bureaucrat out there will be saying, well, you can't have this test or you can't have this procedure because some bean-counter decides that this is not a good way to use our health-care dollars."

    So no bureaucrats, no bean-counters. Mr. Obama merely wants to create "a panel of experts, health experts, doctors, who can provide guidelines to doctors and patients about what procedures work best in what situations, and find ways to reduce, for example, the number of tests that people take" (New Hampshire, again). Oh, and your health-care plan? You can keep it, as long your insurance company or employer can meet all the new regulations Mr. Obama favors. His choice of verbs, in Montana, provides a clue about what that will mean: "will be prohibited," "will no longer be able," "we'll require" . . .

    Maybe you're starting to fret about all those bureaucrats and bean-counters again. You shouldn't, according to Mr. Obama. "The only thing I would point is, is that Medicare is a government program that works really well for our seniors," he noted in Colorado. After all, as he said in New Hampshire, "If we're able to get something right like Medicare, then there should be a little more confidence that maybe the government can have a role—not the dominant role, but a role—in making sure the people are treated fairly when it comes to insurance."

    The government didn't get Medicare right, though: Just ask the President. The entitlement is "going broke" (Colorado) and "unsustainable" and "running out of money" (New Hampshire). And it's "in deep trouble if we don't do something, because as you said, money doesn't grow on trees" (Montana).

    So the health-care status quo needs top-to-bottom reform, except for the parts that "you" happen to like. Government won't interfere with patients and their physicians, considering that the new panel of experts who will make decisions intended to reduce tests and treatments doesn't count as government. But Medicare shows that government involvement isn't so bad, aside from the fact that spending is out of control—and that program needs top-to-bottom reform too.

    Voters aren't stupid. The true reason ObamaCare is in trouble isn't because "folks aren't listening," but because they are.
    ###

    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. Micael's Avatar
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       #1368  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    You'd both make horrible Vulcans (so would the guy who wrote the script). Whether the good of the many outweigh the good of the few or the one is a premise. It's not a logical conclusion. Even if we were to accept it as a self-evident premise, how does it apply to health care? Who are the many: the ~84% that already have insurance coverage or the ~16% that don't?
    This really is a loaded question that begs context. Exchange the word "good" with the word "rights" and you'll see what I mean.

    I think the healthcare system should be set up to support the few, as well as the many. Getting there is the problem. This makes me think about the seniors,e.g., are they too old to get as much good out a procedure as a younger person?

    For me, healthcare is also about quality of life, not just quantity. So what if the senior only gets half a dozen years benefit from a procedure, versus 2 or more decades for a younger person? We should be easing suffering, regardless of the age. In fact, old age is where most of the suffering occurs, and therefore, should be a major focus of our system.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. #1369  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Yes I am in its current form. Health insurance accounts give the user more power to control their own health care. As a note, I am just under 60.
    So you don't beleive that anyone in the US should have the right to government funded health care?
  10. Micael's Avatar
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       #1370  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Do you really work in the insurance industry? If so, I'm surprised that you're not aware how insurance works. You pool money from everyone--you only pay out to who needs it. The larger the pool, the less everyone has to pay--Insurance Economics 101, actually.

    The difference between insurance and other industries is that everyone needs insurance. It's not like insurance is an electronic gadget where I can choose to buy it or not. Not having insurance is a life-or-death decision. Not buy a Pre isn't.
    Thanks for the lesson.

    Not everyone wants insurance, and whether or not they need it is debatable. There are wealthy people here, after all, that can afford their own medical bills.

    What nobody on the left seems to be grasping is that it's not the insurance company profits (again, that accounts for .6% of the healthcare system... big whoop). It's the fact that premiums keep going up. They keep going up because costs are going up. Insurance companies have little control over that. If anything, they're responsible for helping to keep costs lower than they could be.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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       #1371  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Medicare, as an insurance entity, covers more than any other individual insurance company.
    This is news? How many individual insurance companies cover all 50 states?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #1372  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...Not everyone wants insurance, and whether or not they need it is debatable. There are wealthy people here, after all, that can afford their own medical bills.
    That's a very weak argument. You seem to be missing the people who want it and can't afford it, and the people who have been denied... etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What nobody on the left seems to be grasping is that it's not the insurance company profits (again, that accounts for .6% of the healthcare system... big whoop). It's the fact that premiums keep going up. They keep going up because costs are going up. Insurance companies have little control over that. If anything, they're responsible for helping to keep costs lower than they could be.
    I think your number is deceiving. Is that after all wages, bonuses and shareholders have been paid? Are they "S' or "C" corporations?
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  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #1373  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    That's a very weak argument. You seem to be missing the people who want it and can't afford it, and the people who have been denied... etc...
    I didn't forget them. They had nothing to do with my point. Different discussion
    I think your number is deceiving. Is that after all wages, bonuses and shareholders have been paid? Are they "S' or "C" corporations?
    Slice that .6 percent any way you wish, palandri. You still won't get it. This isn't about profits. Its about power and control. Government power and control. You talking points direct you to attack the insurance companies, when they're just easy targets. What about waste fraud and abuse in the hospitals? Physicians? Pharmaceutical companies?

    NOTHING Obama has proposed has been shown to provide a penny in savings. They don't even try to show a savings. WHY? Because IT'S NOT ABOUT PROFITS, IT'S ABOUT POWER AND CONTROL!

    Hello? Is thing on?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #1374  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Yes, but it's a lesson you had trouble grasping in a previous post.
    no, grasping just fine thanks.
    SEC filings reveal that 2000 to 2007, profits of the 10 largest health insurance companies rose 428 percent. In 2000, $2.4 billion in profit. By 2007, $12.9 billion. I recently read that companies made $18 billion in profit in 2008.

    While private insurance companies quadrupled their profits between 2000 and 2007, the number of Americans without health insurance grew 19 percent.

    By 2007, the CEOs of those companies were taking home an average of $11.9 million in salary.

    Sure, insurance profits aren't the only problem with healthcare in America (which is why every time someone tries to tackle this juggernaut, Americans get confused on the specifics), but they are one of the problems.

    Costs are going up--but so are profits. This tells me that part of the increased costs are profits. It's not so hard to see a relationship there.
    Pools, profits, and evil CEOs. Same old mantra.

    So you've beaten the point to death that insurance companies are evil and don't deserve to make a profit. Great.

    Now what are you doing to cut costs? Nothing. What are you doing to prevent rationing? Adding 50 million more patients, oh and by the way, we'll cut some fat out of Medicare, and remember not a penny in new taxes if you make under 250k a year. Sure, no rationing here.

    You don't seem to get it, zelgo. The problem isn't that theres no issues with the existing system. The problem is the plan that's being developed will be a disaster for healthcare and our economy.

    Your plan sucks.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #1375  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Power and control? What does those get you? Keeping the system the way it is gets private companies lots of monetary profits.
    Zelgo.... listen to me.... stop. Stop thinking a minute. Listen. JUST listen....


    NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT KEEPING THE SYSTEM THE WAY IT IS!!!!

    Did it soak in that time?
    Obama will be gone in a few years, what's "power and control" going to get him? Did Medicare and Social Security get President Johnson lots of "power and control"?

    Profits?--Tangible and the main reason for companies to exist.

    Power and Control?--nebulous straw man brought up by people who want to distract from the profits

    You talking to your brain?
    Apparently so, cause you sure don't seem to be listening.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. Micael's Avatar
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       #1376  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I didn't realize Groucho Marx had many views on healthcare.
    It's a narrow view... but deep.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1377  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    There will be rationing--but not based on cost--based on evidence-based medicine.
    False. Simple math. You can't add 50 million people to a program that's already failing and NOT ration based on cost.
    There's rationing already in the private healthcare system based on cost.

    Medicare will work just fine when it's part of a single-payer for all system--which is coming...give it time.
    By definition Medicare will no longer exits. And your system sucks. How do I know? Everywhere it's implemented, it sucks. Why do you think Canada has significantly higher cancer deaths than the US, Zelgo?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1378  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Really? So what's your alternate plan?

    Why is everyone yelling out words like Socialist, Marxist, Nazi, death panels, and "your plan sucks"--instead of discussing alternatives?

    Let me guess, you don't really have one.
    It's YOUR plan that's at stake here, not mine. And those words are being brought up because they fit.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1379  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    And your vast experience with Canadian healthcare comes from...?
    I claimed I had vast experience with Canadian healthcare? And why do you need to be so snooty?
    Taiwan and Japan, for example, have more MRI machines than the US per capita and France and Germany are very close--yet they all have single-payer systems. All have better healthcare quality than we do and cover everyone.
    I don't agree that they have a better healthcare quality than we do. We have some issues to address, and I'm sure theres always room to improve quality, but blanket statements like that don't fly.
    The wait time in the US is longer than any of those countries and approaching that of Canada and England.

    America's system doesn't work--it's leaving too many people out and costs too much for the middle class. Countries that recently changed their systems like Japan and Taiwan looked all over the world for models to care to emulate. They all rejected America's system outright because it's unsustainable.
    You're back to attacking the system again Zelgo. The problem is your plan, not the fact that we have issues to address. You're like a one trick pony.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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       #1380  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Okay, let's quote the fake cancer statistics again, shall we? Where are you getting your facts from--Sarah Palin's tweets?
    I tried the tweet thing briefly and then ditched it. I'm not that interested in following everyones mundane minutiae. Nor do I have a page up on Facebook or MySpace. Guess I'm old school :P

    Which tweets do you follow? Pelosi? Obama?
    I don't think you can add 77 million baby boomers to an existing Medicare--thus, America will have to go to a single payer system to pay for everyone's care.
    Sorry. Non sequitar. That's ONE option, but the wrong one. I've posted my ideas on what could be done to lower costs and extend coverage in these threads. Why must THIS particular plan be shoved down our throats?

    Because it's about power and control by the government.... which we know, always does a bang up job running things. Harry Reid is SUCH a genius.
    Single Payer system sucks everywhere it's implemented?
    Have you actually been to Europe? Even the conservatives love their system. (and now you can start the Nazi and Socialist name calling...)
    omg you're clairvoyant! How did you know I was going to start with the name calling!?
    If you took away single payer in europe, you would have a war on your hands.
    Fine. This ain't europe. And yes, I've been there, and I wouldn't want to live there.
    "it sucks"--really doesn't mean much.
    It says it all, for me, thanks.
    Yet, the reason we're even having this healthcare discussion is that we all agree the American system sucks.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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