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  1. #1341  
    Medicare is broke. Go figure. Cost controls? That means reduced benefits, reduced reimbursements. Death panels in Medicare? Medicare has been known to refuse reimbursements. Bunches of doctors do not take or do limit their exposure to Medicare. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And just what government run health care are you talking about? Medicare? There is absolutely nothing about Medicare that fits with your description, now, is there? Medicare patients have their choice of providers, their choice of hospitals, and guess what? There are no death panels in Medicare. Go figure.

    The easiest and least painful way to do this is simple. Just expand Medicare downward, a little at a time, along with cost controls. That will give insurance companies time to move on to something else to insure other than your health. I've already posted data showing that Medicare beneficiaries are more happy with their coverage than those with private insurance. Combined with cost controls and drug cost reductions, there is no reason it couldn't be instituted economically.

    Oh...yeah, I heard that. I also heard Grassly say that he wasn't going to vote for a bill no matter what it contained. There is no vision here, no commitment to providing for the population. From the republican side, it's all about promoting failure, and the health of the country be damned. It's truly transparent and pathetic, but not unexpected. That's what happens when you try and be bipartisan. No matter what you give up, it's not enough.
  2. #1342  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Medicare is broke. Go figure. Cost controls? That means reduced benefits, reduced reimbursements. Death panels in Medicare? Medicare has been known to refuse reimbursements. Bunches of doctors do not take or do limit their exposure to Medicare. Go figure.
    Medicare refusals of procedures are less than private insurers. Medicare HMO's have been marginal and there are studies suggesting that they may have rationed some care, for example hip replacement surgery. This is NOT Medicare. It is an HMO owned privately that manages care, taking Medicare money as its income. Why doesn't that work? Because these are old people. Old people take meds and get sick. Young people in HMO's are less likely to do either and so they cost less. Real rocket science.

    $800 billion dollars annually goes into the for-profit system in this country, 1 out of every three dollars that are spent. You want some savings? There it is. Take that and apply it to Medicare and guess what? Your shortages disappear. Adding younger people to Medicare will have less economic impact because more of them will be younger and healthier. This is usually not figured into future projections, but is certainly real.

    Yes, there are some doctors who don't see Medicare patients. Pediatricians, obstetricians, and very few others. And as the population continues to age, anyone who refuses to take Medicare payment will be hurting their business significantly. And don't get me wrong. There are lots of things I don't like at all about Medicare from the practical standpoint. But it works, patients are satisfied with it, and it can be made revenue neutral by taking money from private systems with massive overhead. You may not like that, but it's a solution that is easier than anything else I've seen. The structure is already there, unlike co-ops. Offices are already aware of how to deal with Medicare and bill it. There is no other good, simple substitute. That is, if you really want health care reform, which it appears the republicans do not.
    Last edited by davidra; 08/19/2009 at 05:47 PM.
  3. #1343  
    Some interesting things going on...first, I have always considered Factcheck.org to be an unbiased resource. You may not, but this link about the myths of the health care debate is worth looking at: LINK

    And just in case you think the "religious right" is opposed to health care reform, consider the Sojourners:

    call to renewal
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    #1344  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And just in case you think the "religious right" is opposed to health care reform, consider the Sojourners:

    call to renewal
    Sojouners are not on the religious Right.
  5. #1345  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    So you can dish it out? but you can't take it? How many times have you called me a Marxist or a Socialist for simply being in a Labor Union?
    I don't see why you'd consider that an insult. Your views seem to fall right in line with Marxism (as presented by Marx, not necessarily as attributed to him). Have you ever read The Communist Manifesto?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #1346  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Sojouners are not on the religious Right.
    I would imagine the Sojourners have been in favor of national healthcare from the beginning, but I have never really checked. They have always been on the left as far as I know, but I don't follow them.
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  7. #1347  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Medicare is broke. Go figure. Cost controls? That means reduced benefits, reduced reimbursements. Death panels in Medicare? Medicare has been known to refuse reimbursements. Bunches of doctors do not take or do limit their exposure to Medicare. Go figure.
    Are you advocating scrapping Medicare? Have all those old people complaining about socialism waived their right to Medicare?
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       #1348  
    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Are you advocating scrapping Medicare? Have all those old people complaining about socialism waived their right to Medicare?
    Yep. Medicare is just wonderful. Just wait and see what it looks like after we extend it to 50 million more people. No rationing you say? Ha!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1349  
    One thing that I haven't seen anyone talk about yet is what will happen once we go to a single payer public system. Like Canada, one of the first things that will happen will be that the Government will take over all of the hospitals. Each hospital will be "not for profit" and will have a budget worked out for them. If they want to add a MRI machine to better accommodate their patients and doctors, and its not in the budget, too bad. No MRI machine. We're trying to control costs. So now there's less MRI machines, meaning longer waits and larger distances to travel to get to one if you need one..... but we won't be rationing....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #1350  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    One thing that I haven't seen anyone talk about yet is what will happen once we go to a single payer public system. Like Canada, one of the first things that will happen will be that the Government will take over all of the hospitals. Each hospital will be "not for profit" and will have a budget worked out for them. If they want to add a MRI machine to better accommodate their patients and doctors, and its not in the budget, too bad. No MRI machine. We're trying to control costs. So now there's less MRI machines, meaning longer waits and larger distances to travel to get to one if you need one..... but we won't be rationing....
    What sense does that make? The profit which is now going to private fat cats and share holders now goes to healthcare. So healthcare has more money and you say there will be less. That makes no sense. You have to start thinking outside the box.

    As silly as this may sound, I know you like Star Trek. Do you remember Spock's statement, "...logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...?".
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  11. #1351  
    Yes I am in its current form. Health insurance accounts give the user more power to control their own health care. As a note, I am just under 60.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADGrant View Post
    Are you advocating scrapping Medicare? Have all those old people complaining about socialism waived their right to Medicare?
  12. #1352  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    ...I did, however, call before a back surgery to question whether the anesthesiolgist was in my network....he wasn't....so I called them and negotiated a 40% discount if it was paid within 30 days...
    That clearly shows you can only think in dollars and cents. If they added a marriage tax, you would divorce your wife before paying it.
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  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #1353  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    What sense does that make? The profit which is now going to private fat cats and share holders now goes to healthcare. So healthcare has more money and you say there will be less. That makes no sense. You have to start thinking outside the box.

    As silly as this may sound, I know you like Star Trek. Do you remember Spock's statement, "...logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...?".
    Ok palandri, we get that you don't like CEO's or private fat cats. Profit is good. It allows you to hire more employees and provide better products, cheaper, and to more people. Amazing how that works. Oh, and did you miss the fact that many of these "fat cats" pay for health insurance for their employees?

    Do you remember how many times Kirk threw that logic back in Spocks face and... proved... him.... wrong? (he said in his best James T voice)
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #1354  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    What sense does that make? The profit which is now going to private fat cats and share holders now goes to healthcare. So healthcare has more money and you say there will be less. That makes no sense. You have to start thinking outside the box.
    Oh, and take that box and study the waiting lists and rationing in Canada, while you're at it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #1355  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok palandri, we get that you don't like CEO's or private fat cats. Profit is good. It allows you to hire more employees and provide better products, cheaper, and to more people. Amazing how that works. Oh, and did you miss the fact that many of these "fat cats" pay for health insurance for their employees?

    Do you remember how many times Kirk threw that logic back in Spocks face and... proved... him.... wrong? (he said in his best James T voice)
    What are you doing up so late? Get to bed!

    You have to take that profit thought out of your head. Healthcare does not have to make a profit. Healthcare does not have to be in a competitive environment to keep cost under control. That's as silly as saying the Army has to make a profit.

    ...and Kirk never disagreed with, "...logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...?". You can't disagree with that statement; that would be illogical.
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  16. #1356  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Oh, and take that box and study the waiting lists and rationing in Canada, while you're at it.
    Now suddenly take some of that money and pay a fat cat millions and any waiting list disappears. That makes sense.

    Well maybe the fat cat can do it with smoke and mirrors like they are doing now.
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  17. #1357  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok palandri, we get that you don't like CEO's or private fat cats. Profit is good. It allows you to hire more employees and provide better products, cheaper, and to more people. Amazing how that works. Oh, and did you miss the fact that many of these "fat cats" pay for health insurance for their employees?
    I have absolutely no problem with profit, or successful capitalism in any way. I am not a socialist, at least not how I would define it. I just think that health care is different than selling vacuum cleaners or cars or jello. I'm sure it has something to do with what I have been doing for the last 35 years or so, but I just don't think that people's health should be subject to market whims and stockholders, and I don't think a third of all the resources should go to an intermediary who provides no substantive benefits. Do doctors and other direct providers of care profit from people's illnesses? To be sure, and many profit in a manner that most rational people would consider excessive. I think that should be fixed as well. But our students graduate with an average debt of $150,000 and get paid around $50K as residents, some of which can last six years. They have families to support as well. And most are not interested in how much money they can make; that wasn't why they chose their career, which now has a huge questionmark for it's future earning capacity. Most want to help people. I say that based on their participation in free clinics, international mission trips, fundraising for shelters, doing foot cleaning for homeless people...things that most of you probably wouldn't be interested in doing, if you're honest. There are lots of sides to every argument, but at least I feel comfortable with the fact that I have been favoring universal coverage for many many years now, and I hope we have it this year, in some form that will enable it to survive financially....because otherwise it's just been a waste of time.
  18. #1358  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I have absolutely no problem with profit, or successful capitalism in any way. I am not a socialist, at least not how I would define it. I just think that health care is different than selling vacuum cleaners or cars or jello....
    I agree with that 100%.
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  19. #1359  
    This "discussion" has become totally useless, in my opinion, because let's face it.....it ain't changing the opinions on either side.

    Folks who want a complete over haul see it as the right thing to do....the compassionate thing....a right. Which is fine, that is their opinion, but these folks have absolutely no regard for the cost of it. A quote from Wikepedia on Medicare says the following:

    "According to the 2008 report by the board of trustees for Medicare and Social Security, Medicare will spend more than it brings in from taxes this year (2008). The Medicare hospital insurance trust fund will become insolvent by 2019.[32][33][34][35] Shortly after the release of the report, the Chief Actuary testified that the insolvency of the system could be pushed back by 18 months if Medicare Advantage plans that provide more health care services than traditional Medicare and pass savings onto beneficiaries were paid at the same rate as the traditional fee-for-service program. He also testified that the 10-year cost of Medicare drug benefit is 37% lower than originally projected in 2003, and 17% percent lower than last year's projections.[36] The New York Times wrote in January 2009 that Social Security and Medicare "have proved almost sacrosanct in political terms, even as they threaten to grow so large as to be unsustainable in the long run."[37]"

    So, based on what I've read in this thread, this is irrelevant information. I guess it is just info to ignore?

    I just don't see how we can ignore the costs of such a massive program when we have seen example after example of government run programs running in the red and not be fixed. I just don't see how the cost of the program can be ignored, especially when Obama continues to say that no one making less than $250,000 will pay a single dime more in taxes. Folks like palandri, bujin, and davidra say medicare patients are extremely happy with the program....and why wouldn't they be? They get medical care for what, $94 per month? Sounds good to me to. Unfortunately, the amount of money going in to fund the program continues to grow smaller while outflows get larger....and this isn't going to change. But...again...this is irrelevant to these people. So....just doesn't make sense to continue to when the solvency of the program is not a factor.
    Last edited by clemgrad85; 08/20/2009 at 07:59 AM.
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  20. #1360  
    In actuality, the answer is quite easy. You just won't like it. Along with negotiating reasonable drug prices, minimizing fraud, decreasing unnecessary procedures, goes the next aspect: increasing our taxes.

    We have one of the lowest personal tax rates in the world. (Link

    We also have pretty good income compared to the rest of the world. Maybe we need to put a little more into the kitty so we can have insurance that doesn't go away when we change jobs, or develop a condition, or we get fired. And it would also help businesses who no longer would be forced to provide for their employees. But generally we are too selfish to actually do this. It's a cultural thing.

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