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  1. #1081  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Jmelan.....you know bringing up the cost of socialized medecine is a right wing ploy. I mean paying for healthcare is simple, you just tax the wealthy more (of course, just those making over $250k as a promise is a promise!), it is their patriotic duty to pay for the health care of others. This also serves a second objective which is getting everyone on the same playing field. If those making say, $500,000, are taxed enough, say 75% (includes all taxes though, don't want to assume this is just federal income tax), why then they only are making $125,000 net and this will get everyone more "equal"....it is the more fair way to live.

    Now....again....let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya....and then....for our next song let's hold hands with Ahmedinejad and Putin and sing We are the World.
    Clem as I mentioned earlier, I have seen tax statistics twisted every which way. It's not you nor I that are twisting them, rather the people presenting them. I can show you statistics that the current tax structure starts out progressive, but then becomes regressive due to loopholes, meaning the more you make the less you pay.
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  2. #1082  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    You just gotta remember Nancy and her Nazi comment about those who do not support the Obama Government Financed Health Care program.

    I'll take your response to be in support of the conservative leaders' Nazi comments. Thanks for clarifying.
    Last edited by Bujin; 08/08/2009 at 01:50 PM.
  3. #1083  
    ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says President Barack Obama's health plan is "downright evil." The accusation is made in Palin's first online comments since leaving office. Palin charges in a Facebook posting that the president would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans.

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  4. #1084  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says President Barack Obama's health plan is "downright evil." The accusation is made in Palin's first online comments since leaving office. Palin charges in a Facebook posting that the president would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans.

    For some members of the Republican leadership, facts mean nothing. The politics of fear and racial anxiety are the only currency.

    I believe that the goal is to (a) scare the mainstream conservate audience, especially middle-aged white people, and (b) validate the opinions of the lunatic fringe, so that acts of violence become more acceptable in their eyes.

    When someone eventually makes an assassination attempt on Obama, the Limbaughs and O'Reilly will say "I only said Obama was Hitler and will kill your grandma, I didn't advocate violence".

    If violence isn't a conscious goal, it's at the very least a predictable outcome.
    Last edited by Bujin; 08/08/2009 at 01:58 PM.
  5. #1085  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Clem as I mentioned earlier, I have seen tax statistics twisted every which way. It's not you nor I that are twisting them, rather the people presenting them. I can show you statistics that the current tax structure starts out progressive, but then becomes regressive due to loopholes, meaning the more you make the less you pay.
    Yes....so that I might learn....I would like to see a link to the info that shows the more you make the less you pay. This would interest me quite a bit. Are you saying that those making over $250k don't really pay taxes? Interesting....yes....I would very much like to see these statistics. But, I would say this, if it is due to loopholes then whose fault is that? Should they ignore the loopholes and just be patriotic (thanks Joe) or should they take advantage of what has been set up?
  6. #1086  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says President Barack Obama's health plan is "downright evil." The accusation is made in Palin's first online comments since leaving office. Palin charges in a Facebook posting that the president would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans.

    I was curious about this, so I tried to find the actual 'posting'. It seems to have been submitted as a note.
    As more Americans delve into the disturbing details of the nationalized health care plan that the current administration is rushing through Congress, our collective jaw is dropping, and we’re saying not just no, but hell no!

    The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

    Health care by definition involves life and death decisions. Human rights and human dignity must be at the center of any health care discussion.

    Rep. Michele Bachmann highlighted the Orwellian thinking of the president’s health care advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the White House chief of staff, in a floor speech to the House of Representatives. I commend her for being a voice for the most precious members of our society, our children and our seniors.

    We must step up and engage in this most crucial debate. Nationalizing our health care system is a point of no return for government interference in the lives of its citizens. If we go down this path, there will be no turning back. Ronald Reagan once wrote, “Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we’ll ever see on this earth.” Let’s stop and think and make our voices heard before it’s too late.
    Seems to be based on Bachmann's comments:
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #1087  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    For some members of the Republican leadership, facts mean nothing. The politics of fear and racial anxiety are the only currency.

    I believe that the goal is to (a) scare the mainstream conservate audience, especially middle-aged white people, and (b) validate the opinions of the lunatic fringe, so that acts of violence become more acceptable in their eyes.

    When someone eventually makes an assassination attempt on Obama, the Limbaughs and O'Reilly will say "I only said Obama was Hitler and will kill your grandma, I didn't advocate violence".

    If violence isn't a conscious goal, it's at the very least a predictable outcome.
    Please show me the quote where O'Reilly called Obama Hitler....please show me this. I don't listen to Rush, but I could see him saying something that might sound like that, but since you apparently have these quotes, please let me see these.....especially the quote from O'Reilly. To be fair, I wouldn't be surprised if Hannity said that Of course, Bush was never called anything bad, huh....oh.....I forgot....when liberals call people names it is just them speaking the truth or the fringe (like pelosi, didn't she call Bush stupid? Nice pelosi, real nice...I wonder what would happen if a Republican leader called Obama stupid....the "R" word would surely be used) You libs crack me up.....so hypocritical.....you have groups like ACORN that show up at meetings and then it is okay to be organized, but God forgid a Conservative group show up in an organized manner, why, that just isn't right....it's suddenly un-American to protest. We should be kissing Obama's **** since he won? Grow up. Do you think there were any organized rallies by the libs against the war? Ya think? Was that okay? Oh sure that was. Libs just hate when Conservatives use their own tactics against them. How dare they!
  8. #1088  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yes....so that I might learn....I would like to see a link to the info that shows the more you make the less you pay. This would interest me quite a bit. Are you saying that those making over $250k don't really pay taxes? Interesting....yes....I would very much like to see these statistics. [...]
    I would suspect that any such statistics rely on bringing other taxes besides income taxes into the mix. For example, social security taxes are only imposed on income up to a point (Medicare used to be the same way IIRC). 'Sin taxes' often disproportionately affect the lower income segments of society.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #1089  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    For some members of the Republican leadership, facts mean nothing.
    For non-members of the Republican or Democratic parties, facts mean quite a bit. Some of us not only like to hear what a blurb from someone reports. Some of us like to find the source of that report and see if it says what it claims. Sometimes it does, and other times, it's an oversimplification (like this) or nonexistent (like the Kaiser Employee Benefits Survey).
    The politics of fear and racial anxiety are the only currency.

    I believe that the goal is to (a) scare the mainstream conservate audience, especially middle-aged white people, and (b) validate the opinions of the lunatic fringe, so that acts of violence become more acceptable in their eyes.

    When someone eventually makes an assassination attempt on Obama, the Limbaughs and O'Reilly will say "I only said Obama was Hitler and will kill your grandma, I didn't advocate violence".

    If violence isn't a conscious goal, it's at the very least a predictable outcome.
    Speaking of the politics of fear and racial anxiety...^^^
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #1090  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yes....so that I might learn....I would like to see a link to the info that shows the more you make the less you pay. This would interest me quite a bit. Are you saying that those making over $250k don't really pay taxes? Interesting....yes....I would very much like to see these statistics. But, I would say this, if it is due to loopholes then whose fault is that? Should they ignore the loopholes and just be patriotic (thanks Joe) or should they take advantage of what has been set up?
    I am an electrician not an accountant You seem to have very good knowledge on the subject. and could google it better than I.

    The statistics I have seen in the past where it becomes regressive wasn't at the 250K or the 500K level it was much higher. They took the same statistics you quoted, but then said, it looks like they are paying more than their share, but when you look at the percent they end up paying vs their income it showed the system became regressive. The loopholes they mentioned were things like buying a piece of art for $2000 getting it appraised to be valued at $200,000 and then donating it to an art museum.

    Here's a couple of links, I am sure you could find more:

    Loopholes of the rich: how the rich ... - Google Books

    Rich pay less tax as a percentage of income - Democratic Underground
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    #1091  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    For some members of the Republican leadership, facts mean nothing. The politics of fear and racial anxiety are the only currency.
    FACT: Nearly 10 percent of health spending is now for obesity and related conditions, up 40% per capita from 1995. In addition, the obesity rate rose 37percent between 1998 and 2006.

    For example, diabetes costs the nation $190 billion a year to treat, and obesity is by far the single biggest risk factor for developing diabetes.
  12. #1092  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.

    Simple give every one Pre's less stress and better heath? Hey its a start right?
  13. #1093  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I am an electrician not an accountant You seem to have very good knowledge on the subject. and could google it better than I.

    The statistics I have seen in the past where it becomes regressive wasn't at the 250K or the 500K level it was much higher. They took the same statistics you quoted, but then said, it looks like they are paying more than their share, but when you look at the percent they end up paying vs their income it showed the system became regressive. The loopholes they mentioned were things like buying a piece of art for $2000 getting it appraised to be valued at $200,000 and then donating it to an art museum.

    Here's a couple of links, I am sure you could find more:

    Loopholes of the rich: how the rich ... - Google Books

    Rich pay less tax as a percentage of income - Democratic Underground
    Palandri....come on.....one of your links is for the "Democratic Underground" and it is nothing more than folks like you and me having a discussion. I hope no one on the internet is using Bujin as a reliable source! The other link is apparently some type of course or book that was written by an accountant to discuss ways to save on your taxes by following the tax code. I also take legal tax deductions on my tax returns and am happy to avoid taxes when I can (although I realize this doesn't meet Joe Biden's definition of a patriot). Are you suggesting that only those making less than say, $100k, should be able to deduct their housing interest? Or maybe those making more than $100k shouldn't be able to deduct their business expenses? I'm missing your point on this book pointing out legel tax breaks. But even with these legal tax breaks (key word, legal), I stand by the information from the IRS that lists the % of the taxes that certain groups pay. I wonder who the IRS was trying to influence with their statistics?
  14. #1094  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    it's suddenly un-American to protest. We should be kissing Obama's **** since he won? Grow up.
    There's a bit of a difference between protesting and referring to our President as Hitler and burning elected officials in effigy. But many in the grips of racial fear can't see that difference.
  15. #1095  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I hope no one on the internet is using Bujin as a reliable source!
    I'll try not to let the opinion of a stranger on the Internet hurt my feelings.

    Although I do wonder why you felt the need to make an unprovoked attack on me in an exchange that had nothing to do with me.

    Last edited by Bujin; 08/08/2009 at 05:36 PM.
  16. #1096  
    Why do I even come into this thread anymore? It's like slowing down to look at a wreak on the expressway.
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  17. #1097  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Why do I even come into this thread anymore? It's like slowing down to look at a wreak on the expressway.
    Except you're driving one of the cars.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #1098  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Except you're driving one of the cars.
    Touche! Funny.
  19. #1099  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I'll try not to let the opinion of a stranger on the Internet hurt my feelings.

    Although I do wonder why you felt the need to make an unprovoked attack on me in an exchange that had nothing to do with me.

    Whew....the whole time during dinner tonight I kept telling my wife that I hoped I had not hurt Bujin's feelings tonight (she said who????)....almost was not able to finish this incredible chocolate cake we had....anyway, glad you're okay

    An attack? Really? You think I attacked you? I mean, I was just making a statement that I didn't think you had any particular knowledge that would make you an "expert" on healthcare other than your links, so why should anyone use any of your comments as a reliable source? I mean, if I was discussing say....teaching....or something in the eduction field.....maybe you would have some good working knowledge in that and therefore a reliable source worthy of being quoted.....I just had no idea you had dealings daily in the health care field....my bad! For the record, I don't believe I said my comments should be quoted either....although....I do deal with this area quite a bit in my day to day life.

    By the way....still waiting on that link to the video or quote of O'Reilly calling Obama "Hitler"....not doubting you....but just thought I'd check it out myself and see how it was said. Thanks!
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    #1100  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I am glad I don't live in fear.
    But I thought you lived in Chicago.

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