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  1. #1061  


    I was being a tad facetious.
  2. jmelan's Avatar
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    #1062  
    hmm, not sure what is actually being discussed on this thread anymore
  3. #1063  
    I am sure everyone here knows that AARP was boo'd at a public meeting - AARP and OBAMACARE. Videos do not lie. I am sure that everyone here knows about a bunch of doctors in Houston, Tx that attended a meeting expressing their concerns with the Obamacare program. I bet bunches of people wanna know if their representatives will take the same insurance we will be stuck with. I bet bunches of people are finding out their representatives ARE NOT holding public/town hall meetings 'cause they do not want to face the music of the public. The Big 4 here in Hawaii are NOT scheduling public meetings; however, they are meeting with their union supporters and other related interest groups. We all gotta pay for abortions now; we all gotta be concerned about being euthanasia and our being asked to kill ourselves when our time is up.

    American healthcare is better than that in European countries with socialized medicine. The German breast cancer mortality rate is 52% higher than in the United States. Prostate cancer mortality is 604% higher in the United Kingdom and 457% higher in Norway than in the United States. Canadian healthcare lags behind the United States too. Canadian patients wait twice as long to see a specialist for hip surgery or cancer than we do in the United States. Most Americans say they are satisfied with the U.S. health care system, but more than 70% of Germans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and Britons say that their systems need "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding." (Source: National Center for Policy Analysis.)

    Goodness - where's the watering trough?
  4. #1064  
    It is truly just the first step towards turning America into "America Europe". Government run healthcare just continues the steps towards having the government run another aspect of our lives. I mentioned this in an earlier post, but there is already legislation being tossed around to have a public long term care plan. Geez, how much is that little gem going to cost? Oh no problem....the government will just tax the wealthy for it.

    Our country is becoming a country where one group pays the benefits for another group. Per IRS figures (2007), the top 1% paid 40.42% of the total income tax collected. The top 5% paid 60.63%. Even more disturbing the top 50% paid 97.11%! We do not have an equitable tax system in this country...case closed. It will never happen, but we need to go to the "Fair Tax" in this country, which is based on your own consumption.
  5. #1065  
    You have to be very careful with those tax statistics. I have seen them manipulated in every way. Here's a real shocker for you Clem, I think the Steve Forbes had the fairest tax plan, which was a flat tax, everybody paid the same percent across the board.
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  6. #1066  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You have to be very careful with those tax statistics. I have seen them manipulated in every way. Here's a real shocker for you Clem, I think the Steve Forbes had the fairest tax plan, which was a flat tax, everybody paid the same percent across the board.
    Not opposed to Steve Forbes flat tax, but having read the book on the Fair Tax (good reading, quick read), I like that method better. There would be no more tax forms to file....you would pay tax, estimated to be around 23% on any purchase you make (now remember, no federal tax, no social secuity tax, an no medicare tax would be deducted from your paycheck, you would still have state tax withheld, however). Each household would get a rebate check each month that would offset expected tax up to a certain income (the figure I've seen is $40,000, but is based on poverty level figures from the government). So, for example, a household with 4 people and making $26,400 would get a monthly rebate check of $506 to offset the 23% tax they would pay during the month on purchases. This means certain households end up paying no tax! The households making more than $40,000 would also get a check, but would capped at the $40,000 level. So, a household making $250,000 would get the same rebate check as the household making $40,000. But,the household making $250k will be spending more money and therefore paying more tax (23%) for each purchase! Ironically, this isn't designed to reduce the tax you may pay now, but rather to eliminate other things you spend time doing (setting up trusts to avoid taxes, time spent on tax returns, etc).

    The other part is there is NO corporate tax. The theory here is that corporate products and services have about 22% of their price made up of taxes. Again, corporations don't pay taxes, they just pass the tax on to us consumers. So, with no taxes the prices of products and services would likely go down. You say BS? Well, all it would take is one competitor to realize they could net the same profit as before by lowering their price (since they now have no tax to pay) and they will start taking market share, and "poof", others will follow.

    Why is this a good thing? Well, all the illegal money being accumulated and avoiding taxation (drug money, hookers, under the table payments to illegals, for example) would now be collected when an item is purchased! Think of all the money that is not taxed now that would be taxed under this system!

    Anyway.....can't explain the whole thing here.....but read The FairTax Book by Neal Boortz and John Linder.
  7. #1067  
    Wow....found an excellent interview with a man name Rick Baker of Timely Medical Alternatives. This is a Canadian company that gets people on the Canadian waiting lists for medical care into the US for immediate treatment. Well worth listening to as he explains how Americans would be shocked to have to deal with what Canadians have to deal with. He does say American health care is not perfect, but I don't think I nor anyone in here has said that. But, to allow the government to control it, well, just listen to this interview: Timely Medical - Interview with Rick Baker

    Now folks like Bujin are going say something like "but that is why we aren't doing the Canadian system"....but...despite what these folks say, there is enough video of Obama and other left wingers who say it is the ultimate goal....it just might not start out at that level.
  8. #1068  
    Well, right wingers have apparently decided that calling health care proposals "Canadian" or "Socialized" isn't crazy enough, so they've taken to calling it "Nazi", and comparing our elected leaders to Hitler. That adds a special kind of insanity, white fear, and condoning of violence to the debate.

    Nice work, Beck, Palin & Co.!
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    #1069  
    hmm, how to pay for this, ways to save money. tax the causes of increased health care costs, do not just force everyone to pay for the lifestyle choices of a certain population - the primary benefit would not be the revenue, rather the economic pressure for healthier choices

    1) patients actually show up for visits or pay for the visit themselves, just like in private practice, nothing like a 6 month wait for a colonoscopy with a 40% patient show rate. required regular PCP preventative care visits to maintain free care.

    2) new york has the right idea on taxing beverages with sugar added - proven, indisputable, direct correlation to obesity and healthcare costs, money should go directly to healthcare, increased cost will dissuade continued use - basic economics (tax on cigarrettes has had beneficial effect on smoking rates)

    3) more funding for chantix and skoking cessation programs, incentives for smoking cessation (can't work at the cleveland clinic if you smoke, all employees should be required to pay their share of insurance premiums - economic incentive), states should lose federal funding if they do not ban smoking in restaurants and other places

    4) tax mcdonalds, burger king and all restaurant chains over a certain size that continue to serve trans fats, foods with higher than a certain saturated fat percentage, etc (see SUPERSIZE ME) to force an economic benefit from providing healthier options.

    5) tax all preprepared (fast food, restaurants, freezer section) foods that contain more than a certain percentage of trans or saturated fat
    Last edited by jmelan; 08/08/2009 at 09:59 AM.
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    #1070  
    estimated cost of HR3200

    The Congressional Budget Office estimates the bill’s net cost at $1.042 trillion over 10 years — a gross cost of $1.182 trillion, less $140 billion net from taxes on and transfers to businesses to encourage private coverage
  11. #1071  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmelan View Post
    estimated cost of HR3200

    The Congressional Budget Office estimates the bill’s net cost at $1.042 trillion over 10 years — a gross cost of $1.182 trillion, less $140 billion net from taxes on and transfers to businesses to encourage private coverage
    Jmelan.....you know bringing up the cost of socialized medecine is a right wing ploy. I mean paying for healthcare is simple, you just tax the wealthy more (of course, just those making over $250k as a promise is a promise!), it is their patriotic duty to pay for the health care of others. This also serves a second objective which is getting everyone on the same playing field. If those making say, $500,000, are taxed enough, say 75% (includes all taxes though, don't want to assume this is just federal income tax), why then they only are making $125,000 net and this will get everyone more "equal"....it is the more fair way to live.

    Now....again....let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya....and then....for our next song let's hold hands with Ahmedinejad and Putin and sing We are the World.
  12. #1072  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, right wingers have apparently decided that calling health care proposals "Canadian" or "Socialized" isn't crazy enough, so they've taken to calling it "Nazi", and comparing our elected leaders to Hitler. That adds a special kind of insanity, white fear, and condoning of violence to the debate.

    Nice work, Beck, Palin & Co.!
    Ah the Nazi card. Good thing this is the first time we've seen this.
    try going to Google and search for "Bush is a nazi".
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  13. #1073  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Ah the Nazi card. Good thing this is the first time we've seen this.
    try going to Google and search for "Bush is a nazi".
    I would roll my eyes at it too, if it were just the lunatic fringe posting it. The difference is that it isn't just individual bloggers, but the Republican leadership, including Limbaugh, Beck and Palin. They're playing the Nazi card, not I.

    It's sickening and shouldn't be supported by anyone on either side of the debate. I don't care who supports any of those folks, but anyone who supports their statements comparing Obama and the leadership as Nazis and Hitler is a contributor to the problem in this debate.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  14. #1074  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You have to be very careful with those tax statistics. I have seen them manipulated in every way. Here's a real shocker for you Clem, I think the Steve Forbes had the fairest tax plan, which was a flat tax, everybody paid the same percent across the board.
    I've long been a supporter of a flat tax as well.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  15. #1075  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmelan View Post
    hmm, how to pay for this, ways to save money. tax the causes of increased health care costs, do not just force everyone to pay for the lifestyle choices of a certain population - the primary benefit would not be the revenue, rather the economic pressure for healthier choices

    1) patients actually show up for visits or pay for the visit themselves, just like in private practice, nothing like a 6 month wait for a colonoscopy with a 40% patient show rate. required regular PCP preventative care visits to maintain free care.

    2) new york has the right idea on taxing beverages with sugar added - proven, indisputable, direct correlation to obesity and healthcare costs, money should go directly to healthcare, increased cost will dissuade continued use - basic economics (tax on cigarrettes has had beneficial effect on smoking rates)

    3) more funding for chantix and skoking cessation programs, incentives for smoking cessation (can't work at the cleveland clinic if you smoke, all employees should be required to pay their share of insurance premiums - economic incentive), states should lose federal funding if they do not ban smoking in restaurants and other places

    4) tax mcdonalds, burger king and all restaurant chains over a certain size that continue to serve trans fats, foods with higher than a certain saturated fat percentage, etc (see SUPERSIZE ME) to force an economic benefit from providing healthier options.

    5) tax all preprepared (fast food, restaurants, freezer section) foods that contain more than a certain percentage of trans or saturated fat

    When you tax the use of something, it's usage declines.

    California raised gas taxes to make people drive less. They did...and gas tax revenues declined so the politicians had to raise taxes elsewhere. In the 90's Congress passed a luxury tax on yachts and private jets. Those wealthy enough to buy them decided to NOT buy big ticket items which led to those middle-class workers that make yachts and planes losing their jobs.

    Your point about smoking cessation programs is an EXCELLENT example of why the government should not be involved. Remember the tobacco lawsuits that provided BILLIONS of dollars to states who said they were going to institute anti-smoking campaigns? Well, the politicians rarely used the money for that purpose; they put it to other things that didn't involve smoking. They simply want more money and more control.

    Actually, even my point is moot. The idea of taxpayers funding health care is simply unconstitutional. Taxpayer funded health insurance is not a "right." If I have to pay for someone else to utilize it, it ain't a right.
  16. #1076  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I would roll my eyes at it too, if it were just the lunatic fringe posting it. The difference is that it isn't just individual bloggers, but the Republican leadership, including Limbaugh, Beck and Palin. They're playing the Nazi card, not I.

    It's sickening and shouldn't be supported by anyone on either side of the debate. I don't care who supports any of those folks, but anyone who supports their statements comparing Obama and the leadership as Nazis and Hitler is a contributor to the problem in this debate.
    Were you this upset when everyone was calling Bush a nazi and comparing him to Hitler?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. #1077  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Were you this upset when everyone was calling Bush a nazi and comparing him to Hitler?
    As I clearly stated, there is a clear difference between extremists making such statements and party leaders. And I do not support calling any elected officials such names.

    Do you support or reject the Nazi statements by those conservative leaders?
  18. #1078  
    You just gotta remember Nancy and her Nazi comment about those who do not support the Obama Government Financed Health Care program.

    You also gotta remember Ms Clinton and her 2003 comment about debate with the government (at the top of her voice) and now when anyone wants to debate her government...double standard again. There is more punch to calling our current government leaders that than before. Nice work Nancy, Harry, Joey, Frankie and bunches of others who do not pay their taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, right wingers have apparently decided that calling health care proposals "Canadian" or "Socialized" isn't crazy enough, so they've taken to calling it "Nazi", and comparing our elected leaders to Hitler. That adds a special kind of insanity, white fear, and condoning of violence to the debate.

    Nice work, Beck, Palin & Co.!
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    #1079  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    When you tax the use of something, it's usage declines.
    Ĩ
    I think we agree here... The intention is to lower use, the reduction in heart attacks, diabetes and other chronic diseases would far outweigh any tax revenue, thereby decreasing healthcare costs and resulting in a healthier population
  20. #1080  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I would roll my eyes at it too, if it were just the lunatic fringe posting it. The difference is that it isn't just individual bloggers, but the Republican leadership, including Limbaugh, Beck and Palin. They're playing the Nazi card, not I.

    It's sickening and shouldn't be supported by anyone on either side of the debate. I don't care who supports any of those folks, but anyone who supports their statements comparing Obama and the leadership as Nazis and Hitler is a contributor to the problem in this debate.
    Just as anyone who tries to paint Limbaugh or Beck (and even Palin to a great extent) as 'Republican leadership' is. It's a straw man. They're not the Republican leadership any more than Michael Moore or Keith Olbermann are the 'Democratic leadership' or Mojo Nixon or Penn Gillette are the 'Libertarian leadership'. You're falling into the same rut as the 'other side' which you vilify.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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