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  1. #1021  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Despite what you may think, not everyone who disagrees with you is a lefty - after all, I never left the Republican Party, it left me.
    No....you are right....not everyone who disagrees with me is a "lefty".....just the other day Macael and I disagreed on something and I don't consider him a lefty. But, I do believe that people who believe the government is the answer to every problem is a good candidate to be a lefty. I know very little about the vast majority of your views....but....from what I've seen so far you appear to trust the government, at least the Obama led government, explicitely. Or is there something you can admit you don't trust Obama on? And you seem to think the government is the answer to many of our problems. Perhaps I have misread you and you and I do agree on many things???? We'll see.

    I will say this.....I know quite a number of people who voted for Obama and have admitted they did not expect to get what they are seeing. These people generally voted for Obama because of their strong dislike for Bush. I think Obama ran an amazing race connecting McCain to Bush and many Americans were tired of Bush, so the vote seemed simple....Bush or the Obama "change". Heck....I'll admit it.....I was tired of Bush and he will not go down as one of my favorite Presidents....but....I have not been surprised at what Obama has been doing as he said he would be doing these things. Not sure who people were listening to in the election. Go figure.
  2. #1022  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Or is there something you can admit you don't trust Obama on? And you seem to think the government is the answer to many of our problems. Perhaps I have misread you and you and I do agree on many things???? We'll see.
    Well, that's a complicated question, because it's not just an issue of "I trust him" or "I don't trust him".

    I generally trust that he's a smart guy who is trying to do the right thing. I also trust that he's a pragmatist, and not an ideologue. For example, I have no doubt that, if he had total power, he'd advocate for a single payer system...he's stated as much. He also knows (and I agree) that our system would never support that, so he's favoring a public option. Others will say he's inconsistent, but I think he's been pretty open about the difference between his wishes and what he thinks the system will support.

    So basically, I trust him as a leader, and I basically trust that our system of government will keep things from straying too far in one direction. An example would be gun rights. I'm probably more to the right than Obama on the issue, but I know that our system can use regulation on things such as assault weapons without the government "taking our guns".....our system would never support that.

    I don't necessarily believe that the government is the answer to all of our problems, but I don't think that the market is the answer to everything, either. Like many things in life, it's about balance. For example, if we could provide health care that covers all and reduces cost, then I'm for it. I simply believe (and I realize that you disagree) that the market can't provide it, and that a public option provides competition. In that case, I do trust the government more than the market. On the other hand, I'd be pretty comfortable with abolishing the US Dept of Education.

    All that being said, if "McCain 2000" had run, instead of "McCain 2008", I would have been very satisfied with him as president.
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  3. #1023  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You can check any of my links or quotes....heck, I'd be happy if you'd just read links I posted once in awhile.
    Funny, I'd be happy if you'd just read the links you've posted as well, especially when they don't say what you claim they say.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #1024  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Well....to be honest....I feared that if I ever wanted one I might find that path blocked. I've heard how long it takes to get a gun in other states, and since I have no criminal record, it was easy to get one in SC (took all of 10 minutes) and thought I'd do it now before the Obama government decided it was best that I not have one, or at least, they decided to make it difficult to get one. Just a level of comfort that I have it and hopefully they will never be able to take it away!
    I am glad I don't live in fear.
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  5. #1025  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I am glad I don't live in fear.
    And I don't anymore because Obama and his friends can't stop me from getting a gun now But yes, it was hell until I "pulled the trigger" on that purchase. But, as long as Obama and the liberals are in charge, I will still have that fear factor of what they might do to my country next. With this group, you just never know what socialistic agenda might come flying out next!
  6. #1026  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And I don't anymore because Obama and his friends can't stop me from getting a gun now But yes, it was hell until I "pulled the trigger" on that purchase. But, as long as Obama and the liberals are in charge, I will still have that fear factor of what they might do to my country next. With this group, you just never know what socialistic agenda might come flying out next!
    You keep saying that liberals have a socialist agenda. How would a conservative feel if someone kept talking about their fascist agenda?
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  7. #1027  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    And I don't anymore because Obama and his friends can't stop me from getting a gun now But yes, it was hell until I "pulled the trigger" on that purchase. But, as long as Obama and the liberals are in charge, I will still have that fear factor of what they might do to my country next. With this group, you just never know what socialistic agenda might come flying out next!
    The exact same fears were expressed during the Clinton years...."he'll take away our guns". And as with that administration, it's just as unrealistic to fear that with this one.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  8. #1028  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You keep saying that liberals have a socialist agenda. How would a conservative feel if someone kept talking about their fascist agenda?
    Well....I guess I would say, what? I went to Wikipedia, and here is what they define as fascist:

    Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state.[7] Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement.[8] Fascism opposes class conflict, blames capitalist liberal democracies for its creation and communists for exploiting the concept.[9] Fascism is much defined by what it opposes, what scholars call the fascist negations - its opposition to individualism,[10] rationalism, liberalism, conservatism and communism.

    As a conservative, I would be opposed to that. But much of the liberal agenda, in my opinion, is all about "spreading the wealth" (a direct quote from Obama, your leader) which I happen to disagree with. Are you saying Obama did not say he was for "spreading the wealth"? We all saw this video, and I don't think there is any refuting that he said it. So....I don't see the connection between fascism and conservatives. But the leader of your party, Obama, seems to advocate a key element of socialism, and that is sharing the wealth.

    Now....if we can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya!
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       #1029  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course, if my financial future was directly tied to the status quo, I'd probably fight against change, too.
    Where did I say that I was fighting against change? I'm fighting against single-payer government run healthcare. Not "change". I've said REPEATEDLY that I understood there needed to be some changes to healthcare, and you know it. Why do you insist on the misleading and annoying jabs at me like that?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #1030  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Where did I say that I was fighting against change? I'm fighting against single-payer government run healthcare. Not "change". I've said REPEATEDLY that I understood there needed to be some changes to healthcare, and you know it. Why do you insist on the misleading and annoying jabs at me like that?
    Well, since there have been no single-payer proposals, except for the misinformation in fear-mongering, conspiracy-theorist attacks, you should be psyched!
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  11. #1031  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    ....Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state....
    Like, we can only have western styled democracy, anything else is socialism? Where the ones who have the gold rule? A caste system of people that own for a living and people that work for a living?
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  12. #1032  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Like, we can only have western styled democracy, anything else is socialism? Where the ones who have the gold rule? A caste system of people that own for a living and people that work for a living?
    Well....everyone here as an opportunity to improve themselves. There are examples after examples of people who came from nothing or horrible situations who decided they weren't going to be held back. Look at Oprah....she came from a pretty lousy home situation but she wasn't going to let that keep her down and through hard work she became one of the wealthiest individuals in the US. Go figure....she had nothing (she had no gold)....worked hard (WTF?)....and, huh, look at her now. I am not a huge fan of hers, but I do respect what she has done in building her empire. Look at your favorite radio guy, Rush Linbaugh. How many times did he get fired from his pre-radio jobs? He didn't have gold....he had no trust waiting for him....but love him or hate him....the man turned out quite well financially. So don't feed me this BS of only those with gold rule. Now, when you have built this gold, can life be good....oh sure....but this notion that the people with wealth in this country had it all given to them is just BS. Oops...thought I should add....there are those in our country who did have money handed to them, like the Kennedys and folks like that, so yes, some today with money did not really earn it themselves.

    Our speaker at Rotary on Wed is a jazz historian who discussed the history of jazz here in Charleston. This history goes back to an orphanage, called the Jenkins Orphanage, that was founded by a black minister around 1885 or so. There was no government hand outs back then for such facilities, so guess what they had to do? They had to go out and work to raise money. How did they do that? They developed their music talents and toured the country raising money. Then, because of their hard work, these children turned into great musicians and became well know in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. They did not let a bad situation and racism destroy their lives (by the way, it wasn't an all black orphanage, and many good white musicians also came from this orphanage). Think about it....they succeeded without government money....what? Is that even possible?

    It is true that not everyone can own the company.....there will always be a need for the worker bees....but....I truly believe that with the opportunities available to everyone in this country, if they want to try and improve their life, they can try and achieve that. Will everyone succeed? Hell no. Failure is a part of capitalism....that's why I think those companies that failed should have been allowed to fail. Bail outs don't teach people much other than they can do the wrong things and still survive. The auto companies are a perfect example of just not getting it.
    Last edited by clemgrad85; 08/07/2009 at 09:56 AM.
  13. #1033  
    It's just like trying to win the Lotto.

    There is only so much money, and the more that gets concentrated at the top, the less there is at the bottom. Just a fact. Not to worry, they'll trickle a little down so you don't get rebellious.
    Last edited by palandri; 08/07/2009 at 10:01 AM.
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  14. #1034  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    It's just like trying to win the Lotto.

    There is only so much money, and the more that gets concentrated at the top, the less there is at the bottom. Just a fact. Not to worry, they'll trickle a little down so you don't get rebellious.
    Well....and if it doesn't trickle down...well....I do have that gun As usual....I disagree with your facts
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #1035  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You keep saying that liberals have a socialist agenda. How would a conservative feel if someone kept talking about their fascist agenda?
    Well, they'd just be wrong, since fascism extends from liberalism and the progressives movement of the early 20th century.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1036  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, since there have been no single-payer proposals, except for the misinformation in fear-mongering, conspiracy-theorist attacks, you should be psyched!
    So you deny that Obama has stated repeatedly that a single payer system is his goal?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #1037  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Like, we can only have western styled democracy, anything else is socialism? Where the ones who have the gold rule? A caste system of people that own for a living and people that work for a living?
    Show me a socialist country that works as well as ours, or better.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #1038  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Well, they'd just be wrong, since fascism extends from liberalism and the progressives movement of the early 20th century.
    So Conservatives have the right to call Liberals, Marxist, Socialist, Communist...etc... but Liberals don't have the right to call Conservatives Fascist.

    If a Liberal says the workers of Madagascar are exploited by apparel manufacturers who pay them 18 cents an hour, were suddenly a Marxist. No caste system there, it's western styled democracy at it's best.
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  19. Micael's Avatar
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       #1039  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    It's just like trying to win the Lotto.

    There is only so much money, and the more that gets concentrated at the top, the less there is at the bottom. Just a fact. Not to worry, they'll trickle a little down so you don't get rebellious.
    You really are quite removed from reality, palandri. The age of the "old money" is long gone. Most wealthy people today earned their riches... you know, worked for it. And yes, they run the companies that they've built, and provide jobs for the rest of us working slobs. They're also the ones that will be funding most of the "free healthcare sytem" that you want. At least, according to Obama, thats how it will work. Not a hair of the middle class will be touched in order to pay for it.... and no rationing either... right?

    Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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       #1040  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    So Conservatives have the right to call Liberals, Marxist, Socialist, Communist...etc... but Liberals don't have the right to call Conservatives Fascist.

    If a Liberal says the workers of Madagascar are exploited by apparel manufacturers who pay them 18 cents an hour, were suddenly a Marxist. No caste system there, it's western styled democracy at it's best.
    I'm just tired of the same old casting conservatives as fascists, is all. It's incorrect. It grew into being from leftist ideals. You're the one keeping score, not me.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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