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  1. perception's Avatar
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    #901  
    Great rhetoric for the whole post.

    Guess everyone will have to wait and see what actually happens to the system in the US. Good Luck. And if you dont like what Obama does you all have a right to vote.

    By the way anyone know when the Palm Pre will hit Australian shores.
  2. kabamm's Avatar
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    #902  
    [QUOTE=Toby;1796153]Personally, things like [url= are why I'm distrustful over government proposals for 'reforming' health care. If they can't estimate response to a simple program like 'Cash for Clunkers', how can we trust them to estimate response to (and more importantly cost of) a 'public option'?[/QUOTE]

    So now you're spinning a program that is a runaway success as a failure? No wonder I stopped responding to the right-wing lunacy in this thread. I'm not saying I support 'cash for clunkers' because I don't for a variety of reasons, but I'd say sales of roughly 200,000 cars ought to be, at the least, a benefit to the economy.
    "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.
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  3. #903  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Statistics may say otherwise but what I know is that my own mother doesn't like it. She always opts to go without certain things because they're not covered and she doesn't like asking for help.
    Well don't let something like statistics and facts get in the way of your beliefs! The next step is Obamo-fascism-marxism!$!&@*
  4. #904  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    So now you're spinning a program that is a runaway success as a failure? No wonder I stopped responding to the right-wing lunacy in this thread. I'm not saying I support 'cash for clunkers' because I don't for a variety of reasons, but I'd say sales of roughly 200,000 cars ought to be, at the least, a benefit to the economy.
    Ha. The tragedy is that conservatives are becoming increasingly difficult to satirize because it's hard to come up with anything crazier than what they're saying (supposedly) in earnest. It would be nice in this country if we could have an opposition party that wasn't certifiably insane, but alas, you legislate with the clowns that you have, not the ones that you want.
  5. #905  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Thanks for leaving with a cheap shot.
    That wasn't even approaching cheap. There is no reasoning with crazy. See, e.g., pp. 1-50 of this thread.
  6. #906  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    That wasn't even approaching cheap. There is no reasoning with crazy. See, e.g., pp. 1-50 of this thread.
    So is everyone who fails to see your side of things crazy?
  7. #907  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    So now you're spinning a program that is a runaway success as a failure? No wonder I stopped responding to the right-wing lunacy in this thread. I'm not saying I support 'cash for clunkers' because I don't for a variety of reasons, but I'd say sales of roughly 200,000 cars ought to be, at the least, a benefit to the economy.
    Toby's point is it's hard to have faith in a govt that cant estimate how much a car exchange program will cost when they are asking us to trust them with healthcare.
    Regardless of which side your on cant you see the point that if they cant anticipate how much they'll need for a simple thing like the cash for clunkers program (cause its soo complicated) how can we even begin to assume, let alone trust them to be able to manage a healthcare plan and accurately anticipate its costs?
    If nothing you must be able to agree that managing healthcare for several million people is way more complex than cash for clunkers.
  8. kabamm's Avatar
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    #908  
    Ya'll have run with some crazy-assed ideas for the last too many years. I've been enjoying watching the Republican Party crash and burn in recent months. The flaming death spiral has warmed my heart. Fair payback for driving the economy into a ditch and seriously damaging our worldwide reputation - not to mention the unnecessary deaths of - and I'm still shocked - hundreds of thousands of innocents - shredding the constitution, "it's just a piece of paper", and now, obstructing the only rational course of action on health care which is to reduce the profit motive and put the focus back on care. So, yeah, crazy for being so thick-headed and wrong.
    "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.
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  9. kabamm's Avatar
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    #909  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Toby's point is it's hard to have faith in a govt that cant estimate how much a car exchange program will cost when they are asking us to trust them with healthcare.
    Regardless of which side your on cant you see the point that if they cant anticipate how much they'll need for a simple thing like the cash for clunkers program (cause its soo complicated) how can we even begin to assume, let alone trust them to be able to manage a healthcare plan and accurately anticipate its costs?
    If nothing you must be able to agree that managing healthcare for several million people is way more complex than cash for clunkers.
    There are many successful gov't programs as has been repeatedly pointed out here and elsewhere, which point you all refuse to acknowledge. I'm over being open-minded about this discussion. So I'll go back to drafting correspondence to my legislators in support of a non-profit health care system and leave you to your comfy little echo chamber here.
    "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.
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  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #910  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    It not unbelievable at all really. Bujin loves the cheap shot.
    Maybe. It is frustrating though, when you try to be respectful and make valid points, to get flippant responses.

    Anyway, palandri is right, this debate is not going anywhere. It has been personally helpful to understand the reasoning on the other side of the debate and to investigate and sharpen my own position. But I think its run its course. Now that the flamers have joined in the debate its just going to get worse.

    I think I'll sit this one out.
  11. #911  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    So now you're spinning a program that is a runaway success as a failure?
    I don't believe I said it was a failure. I'm also not spinning anything.
    No wonder I stopped responding to the right-wing lunacy in this thread.
    Yes, it's no wonder when you see right-wing lunacy even in places where it isn't present.
    I'm not saying I support 'cash for clunkers' because I don't for a variety of reasons, but I'd say sales of roughly 200,000 cars ought to be, at the least, a benefit to the economy.
    I don't really support or oppose it with much enthusiasm. I do have a level of concern about it for the stated reasons. I think that the car sales are undoubtedly a short term benefit to the economy and a much better 'bang for the buck' than most of the financial 'industry' bailouts. However, it's only displacing the traditional dealer 'rebate' discount programs and 'employee pricing' programs that don't seem to have been a sustainable model for the car companies over the last few years.

    Now, let's get back to the meat of my point. If the CBO can't accurately estimate response and cost to a relatively simple program like this one, how can we 'just trust' Congress to come up with a health care reform package and have the numbers be what they claim. I'm sure that if some of the 'right-wing' doomsday scenarios come true and everyone ditches their private insurance for the public option, that would certainly be considered an astounding success for the public program in some respects. However, if the costs are 300% or more than the estimates, it seems unlikely that we all won't feel a bit sick.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #912  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    There are many successful gov't programs as has been repeatedly pointed out here and elsewhere, which point you all refuse to acknowledge. I'm over being open-minded about this discussion. So I'll go back to drafting correspondence to my legislators in support of a non-profit health care system and leave you to your comfy little echo chamber here.
    No one is refusing to acknowledge successful govt programs. Your definition of 'successful' may be suspect but....
    This particular administration has not had any successful programs to my knowledge although unemployment is way down (oh wait wrong presidency). Our Community Organizer in Chief hasnt successfully done anything. No the Crowley/Gates Beerfest doesnt qualify.
    And I am very curious about when you were ever open minded about this discussion. But no matter if your gone your gone.
  13. #913  
    My apologies to the folks in here boasting about the success of the Canadian and UK health plans and how I doubted you. I just watched the John Stossel program from last night on 20/20, and their plans seems perfectly fair and reasonable. What annoys me is when he (Stossel) looks at things being half empty rather than half full. For example, they gave an example of a Canadian woman who because of the long wait in Canada had to come to the US for treatment for a heart issue (blocked artery I think, which was elective surgery in Canada). Well....did you notice how when he mentioned she lost 50 lbs because she wasn't able to eat (due to the heart condition) while waiting in Canada for the operation, they made that out to be a negative? Good grief....she lost 50 lbs because of the wait! So, once she had the surgery in the US she was actually healthier because of the weight loss....looks like win/win to me.

    And then in the UK, they made a big deal about the long lines just to get assigned to a dentist. Excuse me, but people wait in long lines in the US all the time for things like the Pre, or concert tickets....I doubt we will have issues waiting in a line for a dentist (expecially if we can get more games for the Pre, it will then be a pleasure!).

    Then, they made a big deal about how pets can get a CATSCAN quicker than a human. Well duh....it's called a CATSCAN....wouldn't pets be expected to get this quicker? So for those who I might have been hard on, or not open minded to, I do apologize. By the way...the last time I had back surgery it was scheduled the very next day....just saying.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #914  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    So now you're spinning a program that is a runaway success as a failure? No wonder I stopped responding to the right-wing lunacy in this thread. I'm not saying I support 'cash for clunkers' because I don't for a variety of reasons, but I'd say sales of roughly 200,000 cars ought to be, at the least, a benefit to the economy.
    it helps some, it hurts others. it puts those cars out of the reach of those who could only afford them (3k and less). many charities depended on these autos for donations. and there's thousands of small business that broke down these clunkers for spare parts resale.

    btw, why do you have to sling harsh words at people you disagree with, like "right-wing lunacy"? we need to ease up on the negative and hurtful rhetoric in this country. people on both sides of issues can have good ideas that contribute to solutions, kabamm.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #915  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    Ha. The tragedy is that conservatives are becoming increasingly difficult to satirize because it's hard to come up with anything crazier than what they're saying (supposedly) in earnest. It would be nice in this country if we could have an opposition party that wasn't certifiably insane, but alas, you legislate with the clowns that you have, not the ones that you want.
    ...soooo, you're here just to stir up anger? Cause I can't see that you've contributed anything else, so far.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. Micael's Avatar
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       #916  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Maybe. It is frustrating though, when you try to be respectful and make valid points, to get flippant responses.

    Anyway, palandri is right, this debate is not going anywhere. It has been personally helpful to understand the reasoning on the other side of the debate and to investigate and sharpen my own position. But I think its run its course. Now that the flamers have joined in the debate its just going to get worse.

    I think I'll sit this one out.
    Thanks for your contributions, groovy. I learned a lot from your input. This will heat up again after the summer break.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #917  
    Health insurers fighting overhaul plan with cash

    An industry worried about a "public option'' is directing big donations to some state lawmakers.Some of the Minnesota delegation rank high in donations from an industry worried about reform.

    Health insurers fighting overhaul plan with cash
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  18. #918  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Ya'll have run with some crazy-assed ideas for the last too many years. I've been enjoying watching the Republican Party crash and burn in recent months. The flaming death spiral has warmed my heart. Fair payback for driving the economy into a ditch and seriously damaging our worldwide reputation - not to mention the unnecessary deaths of - and I'm still shocked - hundreds of thousands of innocents - shredding the constitution, "it's just a piece of paper", and now, obstructing the only rational course of action on health care which is to reduce the profit motive and put the focus back on care. So, yeah, crazy for being so thick-headed and wrong.
    Quite the contrary.....the liberals have been been giving the Republicans something to revive themselves on (thanks!). This unlimited spending plan with no consequences just isn't going to work and the American people (especially those "on the fence") are finally realizing that the only plan the democrats have is to spend even more money. Of course I'm disappointed with what many Republicans (especially those like A. Spector who finally switched to the party he should have been in) did the last 4 or 5 years, but I'm hoping that seeing what democrats want to do (spend spend spend with no way to pay for all their liberal programs) has finally been the slap in the face that they needed to get back on track. The polls seem to show that the democrats are starting to get some slaps in the face as well. I loved the video from the "town hall" meeting with Spector this past weekend....not sure who that woman was that was giving him an earfull, but she had it right and Spector looked like a deer in headlights. I think we'll see more and more of this in the coming weeks.....just what Obama feared....his plans being known and understood by the American people (gotta rush these things through before anyone knows what they are, geez, good stuff).
  19. #919  
    Here's good news for the average family:

    Gibbs: No tax hike for middle class

    WASHINGTON (AP) The White House spokesman says President Obama is committed to not raising taxes on U.S. families earning less than $250,000....
    Gibbs: No tax hike for middle class - USATODAY.com

    I certainly don't make over $250,000 a year, but this might put Micael over the edge.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  20. Micael's Avatar
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       #920  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Health insurers fighting overhaul plan with cash

    An industry worried about a "public option'' is directing big donations to some state lawmakers.Some of the Minnesota delegation rank high in donations from an industry worried about reform.

    Health insurers fighting overhaul plan with cash
    Ok, you threw me with this post. How is this a bad thing?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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