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  1. #881  
    I could answer about the creative selection of quotes from that article, while leaving out:

    • When the Republicans were in power, their attempts to cut Medicare to reduce government spending ran into a wall of opposition from Democrats.
    • "Nobody is talking about reducing Medicare benefits," Obama said. "Medicare benefits are there because people contributed into a system. It works. We don't want to change it. What we do want is to eliminate some of the waste that is being paid for out of the Medicare trust fund that could be used more effectively to cover more people and to strengthen the system."
    • An analysis for the Kaiser Family Foundation found that Medicare Advantage — the part of the program operated through private insurance companies — would bear 32 percent of the overall cuts. Another 37 percent would come from hospitals and other service providers. But that's not what seniors seem to be hearing.
    • House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md., says Republicans are distorting the facts on a complex issue. "Medicare is going to be available for seniors — at the levels they need," he said.
    But I'm not allowed to use data or logic, so my Magic 8 Ball says "ask again later".
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  2. #882  
    Quote Originally Posted by awesomepatrol View Post
    So, to be clear, we can't have a public option because it might somehow jeopardize the single payer system that we already have, which seniors apparently think works great, because government fatcats living in basements will destroy the country's healthcare and possibly soul with marxism?

    Fascinating.
    I didnt see anywhere in there where it reported any seniors saying it works great. After talking to my elderly mother I understand that she and her friends are worried that cuts will lead to the system getting worse. They call it Mediocrecare. "It's nothing special now but it's all some of us have. Cutting the funding isn't going to make it better." Sorry I dont have a link. None of her group blogs or anything.

    How many of you that think Medicare is so fantastic are actually on it?
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    #883  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I could answer about the creative selection of quotes from that article, while leaving out:
    You could. But the reason you shouldn't is because it was not relevant to the topic we were discussing at the time.

    Would you like to address that?
  4. #884  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    I didnt see anywhere in there where it reported any seniors saying it works great.
    Actually, that was addressed on the last page - it's data, but don't be scared:

    http://forums.precentral.net/off-top...ml#post1795558

    How many of you that think Medicare is so fantastic are actually on it?
    My mother is...and if she wasn't, there's absolutely no way my family would be able to afford the care she's being given in the nursing home in which she lives. It would have cost more per year than I make.

    The level of care she receives is extraordinary, and supports the data which states that people receiving Medicare are far more satisfied than those in private insurance (see the post referenced above).
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  5. #885  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    But I'm not allowed to use data or logic, so my Magic 8 Ball says "ask again later".
    Ask the 8 ball which Kaiser study actually supports your 'data' from earlier. You're just as guilty of transparent scare tactics based on purely anecdotal evidence as anyone else.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #886  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    I didnt see anywhere in there where it reported any seniors saying it works great. After talking to my elderly mother I understand that she and her friends are worried that cuts will lead to the system getting worse. They call it Mediocrecare. "It's nothing special now but it's all some of us have. Cutting the funding isn't going to make it better." Sorry I dont have a link. None of her group blogs or anything.

    How many of you that think Medicare is so fantastic are actually on it?
    Statistics may say otherwise but what I know is that my own mother doesn't like it. She always opts to go without certain things because they're not covered and she doesn't like asking for help.
  7. #887  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Ask the 8 ball which Kaiser study actually supports your 'data' from earlier. You're just as guilty of transparent scare tactics based on purely anecdotal evidence as anyone else.
    I know, I know....inconvenient information doesn't constitute data.


    Who am I trying to scare? Am I scaring people by saying that insuring the uninsured won't cause socialism? Or is it scary that old people won't be forced to die by Obama?

    Where exactly am I creating fear?
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  8. #888  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Statistics may say otherwise but what I know is that my own mother doesn't like it. She always opts to go without certain things because they're not covered and she doesn't like asking for help.
    What help would she need if Medicare wasn't there? The market would, of course, provide for her.

    If you're against government-controlled health care, you should support elimination of Medicare, as well as the VA. I don't see either party doing that.
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/31/2009 at 08:35 PM.
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    #889  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    What help would she need if Medicare wasn't there?
    So the options are bad care or no care at all? Ad you wonder why people don't have much faith in a public health care option?
  10. #890  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    So the options are bad care or no care at all? Ad you wonder why people don't have much faith in a public health care option?
    No, I think that the data supports that Medicare is well-supported by the majority of folks involved. I don't buy that people are receiving "bad care", and Medicare (despite the fact that it isn't perfect) supports the fact that a public option can be viable, efficient and effective, while driving costs down for private insurers.

    You don't have to agree with me, but it would be refreshing to hear arguments that don't include conspiracy theories about "what the government really means...", "what the real socialist agenda is", "how the Illuminati has conspired to alter all survey data in the US regarding health care", "why all other countries health care is inferior to ours", but rather operated on facts.

    And with that, I think I've wasted enough time on this subject. You can all go back to discussing what a genius Glenn Beck is, why Obama hasn't mailed his birth certificate to every American household, or whatever you're into.
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/31/2009 at 08:47 PM.
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  11. #891  
    Perhaps if you actually _thought_ about what you were going to say before you said it, you wouldn't have to instantly edit it and change things before I even had time to reply to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I know, I know....inconvenient information doesn't constitute data.
    Another lie. It's not even a straw man at this point. You're just blatantly lying obviously. I never said inconvenient information didn't constitute data. I said the actual study data didn't support your information. Put up or shut up time. Which section of which Kaiser study supports the factoid you posted earlier to try and scare people that a medical emergency would cause them to go bankrupt and lose their home? If you spent half as much time actually reading what I've said, and the actual study you thought supported what you said, you'd have already answered this question and saved both of us a lot of time. Don't let that stop you from your 'me' moment where you compliment yourself on how evidence based your posts are and how fear and ideology based everyone else's are.
    Who am I trying to scare?
    Who are you not trying to scare?
    Am I scaring people by saying that insuring the uninsured won't cause socialism?
    Non sequitur.
    Or is it scary that old people won't be forced to die by Obama?
    That wasn't an example of scary. No one in fact said that anyone would be forced to die. What was said that Obama used an example where it might be cheaper and more cost effective for someone to take a pain killer than have a surgery. Allowed to die would be more accurate. I did like how you provided an anecdotal example where you 'knew' that your mother in law would still be alive if she hadn't had a surgery (not sure where the evidence is to support that assertion).
    Where exactly am I creating fear, by providing facts and data?
    No, you're creating fear by providing 'facts' which are not supported by the data which supposedly supports them.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #892  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    No, I think that the data supports that Medicare is well-supported by the majority of folks involved. I don't buy that people are receiving "bad care", and Medicare (despite the fact that it isn't perfect) supports the fact that a public option can be viable, efficient and effective, while driving costs down for private insurers.

    I'm saying that the ideologues who state that "the government can't run health care", "universal health care = socialism", and "the market will provide" should put their money where their mouths are: support elimination of Medicare and the VA.
    The flaws in the Medicare system aside, the government is not just proposing to add a Medicare/VA type of option. It's not simply "just another option" as you've been saying. Have you read what's being proposed?
  13. #893  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Actually, that was addressed on the last page - it's data, but don't be scared:

    http://forums.precentral.net/off-top...ml#post1795558



    My mother is...and if she wasn't, there's absolutely no way my family would be able to afford the care she's being given in the nursing home in which she lives. It would have cost more per year than I make.

    The level of care she receives is extraordinary, and supports the data which states that people receiving Medicare are far more satisfied than those in private insurance (see the post referenced above).
    Are you sure you don't mean "Medicaid"? I don't think Medicare pays for care in nursing home....that would fall under Medicaid after you met certain qualifications.
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    #894  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And with that, I think I've wasted enough time on this subject. You can all go back to discussing what a genius Glenn Beck is, why Obama hasn't mailed his birth certificate to every American household, or whatever you're into.
    Thanks for leaving with a cheap shot.
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    #895  
    Unbelievable.
  16. #896  
    I keep hearing all these glowing reports on Medicare and how it should be held up as a glowing example of how good the government works. But isn't Medicare going bankrupt? Is that an example of something running well? All that proves is that when a government program goes under, they simply raise taxes to bail it out. Of course when we begin bailing out Medicare, we'll also be bailing out Social Security and then shortly thereafter whatever health care program the liberals put us all in. I just don't see how we pay for all this. And this is before dealing with our existing budget problems. Do folks really not care where all this money is going to come from?

    These numbers are getting so high that the $700 million to save our wild horses (horses weren't even in America until the Spanish brought them over, if I recall) is just a drop in the bucket. $700 million to save horses???? Really? Is that what we need to be spending our money on?
  17. #897  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy
    Thanks for leaving with a cheap shot
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Unbelievable.
    It not unbelievable at all really. Bujin loves the cheap shot.
  18. #898  
    I am sure this is some rightwing conspiracy site but here we are about Medicare and nursing homes

    Ask Ms. Medicare: Does Medicare Pay For Nursing Homes?
  19. #899  
    Another site. I think Glenn Beck runs this one out of his basement, but it has some info.
    Medicare Coverage: What does Medicare Cover? And Benefits at MedicineNet.com
  20. #900  
    Personally, things like this are why I'm distrustful over government proposals for 'reforming' health care. If they can't estimate response to a simple program like 'Cash for Clunkers', how can we trust them to estimate response to (and more importantly cost of) a 'public option'?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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