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  1. #841  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If you could quote those words that address "rationing" or "it's time to die, old ladies", I'll try to see it. But using evidence to make medical decisions doesn't actually say that. Facts are inconvenient, I'll grant you, but no amount of twisting of his words or reading into his statements actually get to what you're proposing. You're simply incorrect on the facts but, as you so eloquently posted....whatever.
    Okay....so....then you will say that any and everything will be covered? Any procedure a physician recommends...any medication that your physician recommends will be covered? Can you document that? You, my liberal friend, are simply blind to the truth.
  2. #842  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Okay....so....then you will say that any and everything will be covered? Any procedure a physician recommends...any medication that your physician recommends will be covered? Can you document that? You, my liberal friend, are simply blind to the truth.
    So, then, I'll assume that you're granting that Obama doesn't want to kill old people?

    I don't need to document that everything will be covered, simply because if the public option doesn't provide adequate coverage, then folks can still go with a private option....as I said, competition is a good thing. As much as conspiracy theorists can say "a public option will lead to single payer", that's only true if the public option outperforms the private one.
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       #843  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    What does your point have to do with the fact that you claim Obama wants to kill old people?

    I don't need to document that, simply because if the public option doesn't provide adequate coverage, then folks can still go with a private option....as I said, competition is a good thing.
    Don't know about "wants to kill old people", but that may be the net result.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #844  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    then folks can still go with a private option....as I said, competition is a good thing.
    I've repeated and adequately disputed this. For some strange reason, you continue to ignore reason.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #845  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Don't know about "wants to kill old people", but that may be the net result.
    Any data to support that? And, of course, you realize that options being proposed don't affect Medicare in any way, right?
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  6. #846  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I've repeated and adequately disputed this. For some strange reason, you continue to ignore reason.
    I guess that depends on how you mean "adequately". If repeating "Marxism" ad infinitum is adequate rebuttal, and making false claims that Obama stated that "it's time for old people to die", then you win.

    I guess I just set the bar for logic higher than that.
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  7. #847  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    So, then, I'll assume that you're granting that Obama doesn't want to kill old people?

    I don't need to document that everything will be covered, simply because if the public option doesn't provide adequate coverage, then folks can still go with a private option....as I said, competition is a good thing. As much as conspiracy theorists can say "a public option will lead to single payer", that's only true if the public option outperforms the private one.
    Would you PLEASE show me where I said he wanted to kill old people? But he did say....geeez...LOL...that "maybe you're better off not having the surgery but taking the pain killer". As Micael said, this could be the result (death) of that rationing decision. Or better yet, you tell me what he meant by that statement....or maybe....Obama doesn't even understand the plan?

    You're a hoot....
  8. #848  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    So, then, I'll assume that you're granting that Obama doesn't want to kill old people?

    I don't need to document that everything will be covered, simply because if the public option doesn't provide adequate coverage, then folks can still go with a private option....as I said, competition is a good thing. As much as conspiracy theorists can say "a public option will lead to single payer", that's only true if the public option outperforms the private one.
    And at least you seem to finally be agreeing (kind of sort of) that the public option won't cover everything....progress being made.

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  9. #849  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Would you PLEASE show me where I said he wanted to kill old people? But he did say....geeez...LOL...that "maybe you're better off not having the surgery but taking the pain killer". As Micael said, this could be the result (death) of that rationing decision. Or better yet, you tell me what he meant by that statement....or maybe....Obama doesn't even understand the plan?

    You're a hoot....
    From you:

    Obama's answer....maybe she would have been better off with a "pain killer" (interesting choice of word, "killer").
    Also from you:

    Bujin....I'm just quoting your man Obama on telling old people it's just time to die.
    Sure sounds like you believe that letting old ladies die is a purposeful part of Obama's plan, based upon your statements.

    And you may choose to agree with Micael's "theory" (and I use the term loosely) that rationing is a definite result of universal health care, but there's no data to support that - only scare tactics to rile the base...Effective, if these posts are any indication.
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    #850  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I don't need to document that everything will be covered, simply because if the public option doesn't provide adequate coverage, then folks can still go with a private option....as I said, competition is a good thing.
    Not so sure its that simple:

    If you read the fine print in the Congressional plans, you'll find that a lot of cherished aspects of the current system would disappear.
    ...
    The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.

    The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

    The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.
    You'll lose 5 key freedoms under Obama's health care plan - Jul. 24, 2009
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    #851  
    By the way, I fall into the second group.
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    #852  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Okay....so....then you will say that any and everything will be covered? Any procedure a physician recommends...any medication that your physician recommends will be covered?
    No. See my post above. To be fair, no plan covers every procedure or medication. But, as you can see, when the government gets involved there will be further restrictions placed on what even your private plan can/must offer.

    Sorry to budge in .
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       #853  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I guess that depends on how you mean "adequately". If repeating "Marxism" ad infinitum is adequate rebuttal, and making false claims that Obama stated that "it's time for old people to die", then you win.

    I guess I just set the bar for logic higher than that.
    I guess you don't read my posts.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #854  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    From you:



    Also from you:



    Sure sounds like you believe that letting old ladies die is a purposeful part of Obama's plan, based upon your statements.

    And you may choose to agree with Micael's "theory" (and I use the term loosely) that rationing is a definite result of universal health care, but there's no data to support that - only scare tactics to rile the base...Effective, if these posts are any indication.
    Geez....that quote you relate to me is the OBAMA quote. In that case it wasn't the exact quote, forgive me for paraphrasing it, but the exact quote was "....maybe you're better off not having the surgery but taking the pain killer." You did listen to the video, right? Did those words not come from his mouth? LOL You're a hoot. Oh, I did add the last part, about it being an interesting choice of word, "killer"....but again...I didn't use the term "pain killer"....he did. Please at least admit he said that or I'm going to believe you didn't listen to it and are simply afraid to see your almighty Obama said that.

    And if we can agree that he did say that (the exact quote), will you please explain what he meant. I realize I'm not a Harvard grad, so maybe I just can't comprehend what someone with his brain means. I'm probably in that category of people who just behave "stupidly". So tell me Bujin, what did he mean by that statement? Oh, and it may not be a "purposeful part" of his plan, but will you agree it could be the outcome in some instances of his plan? Oh....and you said if the public plan wouldn't cover a condition they could just switch to a private plan? I thought only those that couldn't afford a private plan would be going on the public plan? If you can't afford it, how would they go on it? Gotta get your story straight there....you're a hoot.
  15. #855  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    No. See my post above. To be fair, no plan covers every procedure or medication. But, as you can see, when the government gets involved there will be further restrictions placed on what even your private plan can/must offer.

    Sorry to budge in .
    LOL....I'm with you Groovy....
  16. #856  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I realize I'm not a Harvard grad, so maybe I just can't comprehend what someone with his brain means

    Must....resist....obvious...joke.

    And I already addressed this, despite your allegation that I didn't watch the video. In fact, I transcribed his complete quote here:

    http://forums.precentral.net/off-top...ml#post1794735

    He was talking about using evidence-based practice, in order to reduce waste by eliminating unnecessary procedures. You can spin it however you want, but if you look at the actual video and/or the entire quote, that's clearly what the subject was. (And, for the record, sometimes pain medication is more appropriate than surgery.... and sometimes doctors perform procedures that are not necessary.)

    I thought only those that couldn't afford a private plan would be going on the public plan? If you can't afford it, how would they go on it? Gotta get your story straight there....you're a hoot.
    You're arguing so vehemently against a public option, and don't even realize that it's not just for those who can't afford private insurance? That's awesome!!

    The whole concept is that a public option would be for anyone who chooses it because they believe offers a better option than what the private plan offers....that's why it's offers competition to the private plans. We can disagree on whether that's the best plan, but it's definitely not just for those who can't afford private insurance.

    And for those who are currently uninsured, they may not be able to go out and purchase a private plan, but a public option would certainly offer more coverage than they're getting now.

    And I'll take "you're a hoot" as a compliment. Thanks!
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/31/2009 at 02:16 PM.
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  17. #857  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Must....resist....obvious...joke.

    And I already addressed this, despite your allegation that I didn't watch the video. In fact, I transcribed his complete quote here:

    http://forums.precentral.net/off-top...ml#post1794735

    He was talking about using evidence-based practice, in order to reduce waste by eliminating unnecessary procedures. You can spin it however you want, but if you look at the actual video and/or the entire quote, that's clearly what the subject was. (And, for the record, sometimes pain medication is more appropriate than surgery.... and sometimes doctors perform procedures that are not necessary.)



    You're arguing so vehemently against a public option, and don't even realize that it's not just for those who can't afford private insurance? That's awesome!!

    The whole concept is that a public option would be for anyone who chooses it because they believe offers a better option than what the private plan offers....that's why it's offers competition to the private plans. We can disagree on whether that's the best plan, but it's definitely not just for those who can't afford private insurance.

    And for those who are currently uninsured, they may not be able to go out and purchase a private plan, but a public option would certainly offer more coverage than they're getting now.

    And I'll take "you're a hoot" as a compliment. Thanks!
    So.....I'm now getting this! When a private insurance company denies a procedure, it is just to save money so they can pay a bigger bonus....but if the government were to deny a claim it would be based on "evidence-based practice, in order to reduce waste by eliminating unnecessary procedures." I don't really see much difference there....but....you must be right as you have backed that up so well (not). Interesting....I guess I'm just going to have to get to your level of trusting the government. God help me if that ever happens.

    Well I have apparently misunderstood you when in the past you have said the goal was to provide a public plan for those who couldn't afford coverage or who were denied coverage....you know....those "47" million uninsureds. You are so over the place on flip flopping that you are quite hard to follow. You certainly make good attempts to "spin" things in your direction, but you keep getting caught in reversing what you said previously.

    Yes..."you're a hoot" is kind of a compliment....it certainly isn't anything mean spirited
  18. #858  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Well I have apparently misunderstood you when in the past you have said the goal was to provide a public plan for those who couldn't afford coverage or who were denied coverage....you know....those "47" million uninsureds. You are so over the place on flip flopping that you are quite hard to follow. You certainly make good attempts to "spin" things in your direction, but you keep getting caught in reversing what you said previously.

    Yes..."you're a hoot" is kind of a compliment....it certainly isn't anything mean spirited
    You're smart enough to know that a program can have more than one goal:

    - Insure those that don't currently have coverage, and
    - provide competition in order to address the ever-escalating cost of insurance.

    There has been no inconsistency. Perhaps when addressing the needs of the uninsured, I didn't address the insurance cost goal, but that's because I thought the goals of health care reform were understood by all in the conversation. I'll not make that mistake again.
  19. #859  
    Let's all go to the Rose Garden and have a beer with Obama and talk about it.
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  20. #860  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    ...and you trust the insurance company which is in business solely for profit??

    These arguments about the government denying care and old people dying go far back...to when Medicare was proposed in 1965.

    Strange...none of those fearful predictions panned out...at all.
    Zelgo, would you check your PM's please.
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