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  1. #781  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Latest Pelosi Rant on this issue:

    Pelosi lashes out against insurance companies | Politics | Reuters

    Really, she's starting to scare me with her loose cannon accusations every time she gets cornered.
    I don't see how she's a loose cannon...or how she's cornered. Of course, it's very common to refer to female politicians as "loose cannons", "emotional", etc.

    She sounds spot on to me.
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    #782  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course, it's very common to refer to female politicians as "loose cannons", "emotional", etc.
    So, let's just be clear. You're saying Micael is being sexist?
  3. #783  
    You wonder why some of us are wary of what the government does? You say that we are over reacting to a simple government program that is only meant to cover the currently uninsured? Well....here is a wonderful example of how the government starts out with something innocent, and before you know it, it becomes major and not what the American people were told or expected. If you have a chance, go read the history of the income tax: 1901-1932: The Income Tax Arrives As you'll see, it started out quite innocently and within a 5 year time period (from 1913 - 1918) the top income tax bracket went from 6% to 77%!!!!

    So....while we are accused of using scare tactics, history is on our side of how a simple idea can turn into something much larger and unexpected to the American people. Please read the history of the income tax.....quite interesting.
  4. #784  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    ... As you'll see, it started out quite innocently and within a 5 year time period (from 1913 - 1918) the top income tax bracket went from 6% to 77%!!!!

    .
    I like the way you didn't say who was in office at the time of the "77%" rate...
    And just look what the government has done with Libraries, Fire Departments and the Post Offices! Jeez.
  5. #785  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    So, let's just be clear. You're saying Micael is being sexist?
    i'm saying that female politicians, as a rule, are judged on a very different bar than male ones.

    I also think, on a related subject, that people are generally intimidated by strong female (and minority) leaders, and will criticize them very differently than white male leaders. That's why you can easily find criticisms of Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, and Sarah Palin that all revolve around emotionality, while criticisms of Obama tend to be around how "unAmerican", "foreign", and "not like us" he is.

    I have no real opinion about Micael's stance on the issue...merely making an observation.
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/30/2009 at 07:12 PM.
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    #786  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    i'm saying that female politicians, as a rule, are judged on a very different bar than male ones.
    Yes, Sarah Palin would agree.

    EDIT: But you also have to admit that they can't be defended simply on the basis that the accusation may involve something that is often used as a stereotype.
  7. #787  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Yes, Sarah Palin would agree.

    EDIT: But you also have to admit that they can't be defended simply on the basis that the accusation may involve something that is often used as a stereotype.
    Agreed. However, to use an example the Pelosi statement linked above: folks may disagree about the content of her remarks, but there's nothing that is particularly emotional, out of control, or "loose cannon-ish". I submit that a male legislator wouldn't have been referred to by the same language.
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    #788  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Agreed. However, to use an example the Pelosi statement linked above: folks may disagree about the content of her remarks, but there's nothing that is particularly emotional, out of control, or "loose cannon-ish". I submit that a male legislator wouldn't have been referred to by the same language.
    Bah, I guess I have to watch it now.
  9. #789  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Agreed. However, to use an example the Pelosi statement linked above: folks may disagree about the content of her remarks, but there's nothing that is particularly emotional, out of control, or "loose cannon-ish". I submit that a male legislator wouldn't have been referred to by the same language.
    The Vice President may disagree.
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  10. #790  
    Quote Originally Posted by IGorbot View Post
    I like the way you didn't say who was in office at the time of the "77%" rate...
    And just look what the government has done with Libraries, Fire Departments and the Post Offices! Jeez.
    Not real sure about your comments.....but I believe Woodrow Wilson was the President....a democrat....but I beleve the prior Prez....Taft (Republican) was apparently for the 16th Amendment which paved the way for the permanent federal income tax (grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr). Many Republicans in Congress fought this, but the states still ratified it fairly quickly (according to the article). And the rest.....is history.
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    #791  
    Well, I can't find the video of Pelosi calling insurance companies "villans" and "immoral" but from reading the text she sure is pushing the envelope on demagoguery. If she wasn't emotional she certainly was appealing to emotion, not logic. But, logically, if she's taking money from the villains, should we really trust her?

    Of course that question was just rhetorical.
  12. #792  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The Vice President may disagree.
    Well, but he IS a loose cannon.
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    #793  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Not real sure about your comments.....but I believe Woodrow Wilson was the President....a democrat....but I beleve the prior Prez....Taft (Republican) was apparently for the 16th Amendment which paved the way for the permanent federal income tax (grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr). Many Republicans in Congress fought this, but the states still ratified it fairly quickly (according to the article). And the rest.....is history.
    You can't win. A Republican was in office when the depression started so they're to blame. But when you say the Republicans were mostly responsible for passing the '64 Civil Rights bill they say, "well, that was a different Republican party."
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    #794  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, but he IS a loose cannon.
    Let it never be said we can't all find one point of agreement!
  15. #795  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    You can't win. A Republican was in office when the depression started so they're to blame. But when you say the Republicans were mostly responsible for passing the '64 Civil Rights bill they say, "well, that was a different Republican party."
    I really wasn't even trying to point a finger at either party on the income tax, my point was simply that it started out at 1-6% and in just 5 years it made it to 77%! So we start out with the "public plan" just for a small percent, and before you know it.....we are all under the thumb of the government.

    By the way, John Stossell will be doing a 20/20 story on health care in Canada and the UK tomorrow night. Should be educational. I saw a clip tonight where a town in Canada (watch the show, I forget the name) has a lottery drawing each month for 4 lucky people to be chosen to see who can get in to see a primary care doctor. Let me repeat that.....a lottery drawing to see who gets to see a primary care doctor. Oh yes....this is quite the system we want to model our health care after. F&#k, based on my luck with lotteries, I wouldn't be seeing a doctor very often.
  16. #796  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I really wasn't even trying to point a finger at either party on the income tax, my point was simply that it started out at 1-6% and in just 5 years it made it to 77%! So we start out with the "public plan" just for a small percent, and before you know it.....we are all under the thumb of the government.

    By the way, John Stossell will be doing a 20/20 story on health care in Canada and the UK tomorrow night. Should be educational. I saw a clip tonight where a town in Canada (watch the show, I forget the name) has a lottery drawing each month for 4 lucky people to be chosen to see who can get in to see a primary care doctor. Let me repeat that.....a lottery drawing to see who gets to see a primary care doctor. Oh yes....this is quite the system we want to model our health care after. F&#k, based on my luck with lotteries, I wouldn't be seeing a doctor very often.
    That's about Powassan, Ontario. It has to do with a shortage of doctors for that area. AlmaguinNews.com - Powassan hopes for more doctors with underserviced designation
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  17. #797  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    That's about Powassan, Ontario. It has to do with a shortage of doctors for that area. AlmaguinNews.com - Powassan hopes for more doctors with underserviced designation
    Yup....shortage of doctors will occur here as well. One of the head guys at a local Medical College here in Charleston (Medical University of SC) spoke to our Rotary Club a few weeks ago, said it takes 7 years for a doctor to go through school and be ready to "practice". The avg. debt built up after that 7 years is $240,000. The new students realize that in order to pay off this debt, they won't be able to do handle that debt and make the living they want by becoming general practitioners (medicare pmts are so low, again, according to this spokesman), so they go into a specialty area where they can make the money they want and pay off their debt. So....if everyone will now have health care, and will now have to go to regular doctors (no more clinics and such), do you think we will have a tough time getting into see general doctors? We will have the same number of doctors and more patients which equates to longer waiting lines....especially in small town areas like Powassan where there are few doctor. Sounds like an exciting plan for Americans. But hey, at least when your name gets drawn to be able to see the doctor it will be an exciting day!

    You people are so sure this plan will work....based on what?....the wonderful job the government has done in other areas? Again, I reference how people were concerned about the Federal Income Tax....it started out as a very small percent and then politicians realized what power the 16 Amendment gave them, and then "poof".....thus started the great tax grab of our dollars.....spread the wealth.
  18. #798  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Yup....shortage of doctors will occur here as well.
    You do know that there's a huge difference between a single payer system and simply having a public option that competes with the private one, don't you? Nobody is proposing a single payer system here.

    I don't see the logic of having an additional option for health care causing shortages of doctors, and I'd love to see any data that shows how that would happen here, other than "there are shortages in Canada". That's just Republican fear tactics, just as those wingnuts who were told that government workers will come to your house and tell old people that it's their time to die. It's more of politics of fear.
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/31/2009 at 07:12 AM.
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  19. #799  
    Dealing with a shortage of Doctors, I am guessing it's Powassan, Ontario that they will be talking about on 20/20. I have seen it brought up in other forums, and presented as this is what will happen across the the U.S. with National Healthcare, no matter where you live. We'll all be on a lottery system for healthcare. A few lucky ones will get treated, and the rest of us will die....

    There are Doctor shortages now in different area in the U.S. My mother in law lives in a cabin in northern Minnesota. A Doctor and a Dentist comes to her town every two week. She always complaining that they prioritize who they will and won't see on their biweekly visits. If she drove 40 miles to Grand Rapids, she could see a doctor or a dentist the same day, but she would rather call us up and complain that she may have to suffer another 2 weeks, if they don't see her on their biweekly visit.
    Last edited by palandri; 07/31/2009 at 07:43 AM.
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  20. #800  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You do know that there's a huge difference between a single payer system and simply having a public option that competes with the private one, don't you? Nobody is proposing a single payer system here.

    I don't see the logic of having an additional option for health care causing shortages of doctors, and I'd love to see any data that shows how that would happen here, other than "there are shortages in Canada". That's just Republican fear tactics, just as those wingnuts who were told that government workers will come to your house and tell old people that it's their time to die. It's more of politics of fear.
    Bujin....I'm just quoting your man Obama on telling old people it's just time to die. Go find the video of Obama telling the woman that her mother probably didn't need the surgery, that maybe a pain pill would have been the better way for her to go. Don't get fired up at me for scare tactics when that came from the mouth of the almighty one himself....I didn't say it. The problem was that Obama was talking without his prompter and he was speaking his true feelings. We get the most candid and honest info from the man when the prompter breaks or falls over. Scare tactic? Nope....it's called government rationing and it will be part the public plan. Are you denying Obama said that about the pain pill?

    I'm sorry you can't follow the logic of the doctor shortage. Right now, many uninsureds go to clinics and emergency rooms, right? Well, when they get put on insurance plans, they will have to go to primary care doctors, right? Seems like your liberal speak of the "sky is falling" contstantly say how long it takes now to see a doctor, so now add 47 million into the system seeing primary care doctors and the math don't work. Same number of doctors, more going to see primary care doctors, and bingo bango you have a lottery system like in Canada.

    As for the constant "scare tactic" of everone being on the public plan, it's called the history of government. The governent always says it will be just this....and then it turns into that. We'll just tax you up to 6% of your income (1913), and then 5 years later it's 77% (1918).

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