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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #761  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Actually, the one you cited was from Hafvard, while the CNN one was from the American Journal of Medicine. So I'm afraid you're totally incorrect in your efforts to automatically discount any study that disagrees with your ideological stance. But nice try!
    CNN Article:

    "Unless you're a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, you're one illness away from financial ruin in this country," says lead author Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., of the Harvard Medical School, in Cambridge, Mass
    Article I posted:

    The paper by David Himmelstein, Elizabeth Warren, Deborah Thorne, and Steffie Woolhandler was published as a Health Affairs web exclusive on February 5, 2005. The authors are strong proponents of government run health care.
    emphases mine
  2. #762  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    [URL=" Article:[/URL]



    [URL=" I posted:[/URL]



    emphases mine
    Apologies - didn't see that one of the authors was the same. However, what did you use as a basis that John Goodman's analysis was more reliable than Harvard & the American Journal of Medicine? Other than the fact that it agreed with your preconceptions?
  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #763  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Apologies - didn't see that one of the authors was the same. However, what did you use as a basis that John Goodman's analysis was more reliable than Harvard & the American Journal of Medicine? Other than the fact that it agreed with your preconceptions?
    1. It's more than just that one author is the same (probably all the authors are the same but that's beside the point). It's that they used the same statistic that their previous study concluded as the baseline. Namely, that 46% of bankruptcies were related to medical debt. That tells me the two studies used similar methodology or els the baseline would be flawed.

    2. Unlike CNN, Goodman's article actually linked to the original study. I read it. He was right. First, the Harvard study included variables that were tenuous at best (e.g., included gambling addictions as cause of medical debt, etc). Second, used >$1,000 medical debt over 2 years as the basis to be considered a medical-debt related bankruptcy. So, as one of the study's critics wrote, a person with $50,000 of student loans and $1001 in medical debt would be identified by the study as medical-debt related bankruptcy.
  4. #764  
    An exciting thing about all of these quotes is that they are scare tactics. Not really something to get so totally upset with.

    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
  5. #765  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    LOL! Copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that disallows the government from protecting it's citizens from a catastrophe.
    Please tell me that you seriously don't misunderstand the purpose of the Constitution that badly.
    or... there is a meteor speeding towards earth. The government could shoot a missile at it and destroy it and save thousands of lives, but someone says, "please copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that allows the protection from catastrophe and the gives the gov't the power to implement said protection."
    Perhaps you should read the Constitution instead of watching too many movies?
    On a serious note, why are we even continuing this debate? People who are for national healthcare aren't going to change their mind, nor are people against going to change their mind.
    Why debate anything then?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #766  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    It's all goes back to your original statement: ...We DO pay for people here in America that aren't as well off. No person can be turned away from any hospital, and there are numerous charity orgs around that lend a hand to those in need. ....

    I am sorry, but that's all smoke and mirrors.

    I also read what John C. Goodman had to say. He could get a job as an illusionist in Las Vegas. "Now you see it; now you don't"
    palandri. I gotta say I almost am taking offense, but I don't think you intend it. In my post I also indicated that I had been supported by said orgs and that they'd lent a hand and gotten me and my daughter through some tough times. Are you saying I'm a liar? What's so smoke and mirrors about that?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #767  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Ah, I see. Well, if you can't get past someone's position to see the points they're making then, I'm afraid you're right. You will never be convinced.

    That's kind of sad to me. Because it means you'll go along thinking that I and many good people are just selfish b*stards who only think of "me".
    You know as well as I do, you can do anything with statistic. You can do the same thing with the English language:

    A Panasonic recorder comes with only a lousy 2 year warranty.

    Panasonic goes beyond the industrial standard and comes with a full 2 year Parts and Labor warranty. If anything goes wrong, we fix it for free.

    I never said the emphasis on me meant someone was a selfish b'tard. I clearly stated that the emphasis on me represented rugged individualism and self reliance. I also clearly stated that there is a time and place for it, like when I am working with an apprentice, sooner or later, I have to cut the strings and he's on his own. He's either going to sink or swim.

    Take it a step farther, look at your avatar. Clint Eastwood from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. I don't think you can find an avatar that represents rugged individualism more than that. He's also my favorite actor and I have never missed a Clint Eastwood film.
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  8. #768  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    palandri. I gotta say I almost am taking offense, but I don't think you intend it. In my post I also indicated that I had been supported by said orgs and that they'd lent a hand and gotten me and my daughter through some tough times. Are you saying I'm a liar? What's so smoke and mirrors about that?
    Your statement is no different than what you read on Goodman's page. Is he a liar? no Are you a liar? no It paints a picture, that everything is smelling like roses, and it's not in the healthcare field.

    I am also glad to hear that one of these charity organizations did something to help you!

    Our means to change travel different roads.
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  9. Micael's Avatar
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       #769  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Our means to change travel different roads.
    Yes, you're working for change, and the road you travel has a name. It's called Marxism; it's the antithesis of capitalism. A critical point about your approach is "the government decides for you based on what's good for the collective".

    I want change too, but not to the basic foundations of our capitalistic Democratic Republic; basic concepts and benefits of which include "protecting the rights of the individual", "self determination" and "free-markets are best". These concepts are in direct conflict with the changes you'd wish to bring about palandri. I ain't ready to give these up. Sorry.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #770  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I never said the emphasis on me meant someone was a selfish b'tard. I clearly stated that the emphasis on me represented rugged individualism and self reliance.
    Well, I'm glad it was a misunderstanding. But you have to know how that statement comes across (both to liberal AND conservatives). That's one reason I'm so against sloganeering as a means of communication. I guess John Kerry and I have something in common there: I, too, believe in 'nuanced' language.
  11. #771  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yes, you're working for change, and the road you travel has a name. It's called Marxism; it's the antithesis of capitalism. A critical point about your approach is "the government decides for you based on what's good for the collective".

    I want change too, but not to the basic foundations of our capitalistic Democratic Republic; basic concepts and benefits of which include "protecting the rights of the individual", "self determination" and "free-markets are best". These concepts are in direct conflict with the changes you'd wish to bring about palandri. I ain't ready to give these up. Sorry.
    Come on! now you sound like Joseph McCarthy out on a witch hunt

    Next you'll be arguing that the Army is Marxist and everything Militarily for this country needs to be turned over to Blackwater Protection Services.
    Last edited by palandri; 07/30/2009 at 12:12 PM.
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  12. #772  
    I just noticed palandri is from Chicago....no wonder he is in love with Obama. Sorry to hear about the hot July you guys have been having....it's that darn Global Warming that Republicans are responsible for. We are dealing with an amazingly active hurricane season here on the east coast (Charleston, SC) as the warnings from global alarmists have come true with the prediction of earlier and more hurricanes.

    Sorry....that really had nothing to do with Obama care. Hey palandri, I still can't get any of you government health care activists to comment on Obama's comment to the woman who asked about care for her elderly mother, and how Obama said that perhaps surgery wasn't the treatment her mother should have received, but rather just a pain pill. Is this government rationing of health care? WTF? That isn't supposed to happen, is it? Is this the new government compassion? What would you have said if an evil insurance CEO had said this? You've been quite quiet on this. Comments?....or is there really no explanation needed?
  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #773  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Come on! now you sound like Joseph McCarthy out on a witch hunt

    Next you'll be arguing that the Army is Marxist and everything Militarily for this country needs to be turned over to Blackwater Protection Services.
    Thats your best response? Smear me with the McCarthism tag? I'm just a hateful fearmonger wanting to root out the evil Marxists?

    Thanks for marginalizaing my honest thoughts. But I was serious. I didn't use the word Marxist as a slang term or shout for your internment, palandri. It's simply a term that encapsulates most of what you've talked about in these threads.

    The truth is, you are a marxist. You regularly poke fun at us about our differences being we're about "me" and you're about "we" and its all for the collective good, and its us against the evil rich guy class - you know, the one that's getting rich off of the current healthcare system - lets tax him, bringing him down and to the middle, and spend his money on the lower classes to bring them up to the middle class, and lo and behold, no more classes! That's marxism, palandri. I can't help it if you don't see it for what it is.

    This really is a discussion about marxism (socialism and communism are different levels of marxism) versus capitalism within a democratic republic.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #774  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I just noticed palandri is from Chicago....no wonder he is in love with Obama...
    You have to support your homies!
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  15. #775  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You have to support your homies!
    I hear ya
  16. Micael's Avatar
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       #776  
    Latest Pelosi Rant on this issue:

    Pelosi lashes out against insurance companies | Politics | Reuters

    Really, she's starting to scare me with her loose cannon accusations every time she gets cornered.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #777  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Latest Pelosi Rant on this issue:

    Pelosi lashes out against insurance companies | Politics | Reuters

    Really, she's starting to scare me with her loose cannon accusations every time she gets cornered.
    You go girl!
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  18. #778  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Latest Pelosi Rant on this issue:

    Pelosi lashes out against insurance companies | Politics | Reuters

    Really, she's starting to scare me with her loose cannon accusations every time she gets cornered.
    Pelosi is one scary b*#ch....she wears that kind of psycho grin all the time....freaky. Not sure who is crazier, her or Boxer....yikes....I mean.....Senator Boxer....after all....she earned that!
  19. #779  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Latest Pelosi Rant on this issue:

    Pelosi lashes out against insurance companies | Politics | Reuters

    Really, she's starting to scare me with her loose cannon accusations every time she gets cornered.
    Does that mean she's a Marxist?
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  20. #780  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Does that mean she's a Marxist?
    I think that would be tooo nice of a term for her

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