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  1. Micael's Avatar
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       #741  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    That is one big wall of smoke. Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - CNN.com

    Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

    Then how could medical expenses be the leading cause of Bankruptcy, when...numerous charity orgs around that lend a hand to those in need.?
    Did you read my post? I don't think so. Dunno what your hahvahd post has to do with mine.... was an impressive comeback though... I guess
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #742  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    That is one big wall of smoke. Medical bills prompt more than 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies - CNN.com

    Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

    Then how could medical expenses be the leading cause of Bankruptcy, when...numerous charity orgs around that lend a hand to those in need.?
    I love how CNN floats these four year old studies as though they were today's news.

    Here's a decent take on that study:

    The classifications used to determine a medical bankruptcy were odd. Only 28.3 percent of the sample cited self-reported illness or injury as a cause of bankruptcy. However, H & W managed to almost double that figure (to 54.5 percent) by counting the following as "illnesses":

    * 1. A birth or addition of a new family member
    * 2. A death in a family
    * 3. A drug or alcohol addiction
    * 4. Uncontrolled gambling
    * 5. Loss of at least 2 weeks of work-related income due to illness or injury by anyone in the household
    * 6. Out-of-pocket medical bills of $1,000 in the two years before filing by anyone in the household
    * 7. Mortgaging a home to pay medical bills.

    In a 2005 article in the Northwestern University Law Review, Prof. Todd J. Zywicki called the $1,000 threshold for contributing medical debt "indefensible." That's an understatement. By H & W criteria, a bankruptcy with $50,000 in student loans and $1,001 in unpaid medical bills would be classified as a "medical bankruptcy." Moreover, the average U.S. household had out-of-pocket expenses of $2,182 in 2001!

    In a 2006 review (gated) of the H & W study results in Health Affairs, David Dranove and Michael L. Millenson:

    * Recalculate the medical bankruptcy rate using the data given in the H & W paper. They conclude that just 17 percent of the H & W sample "had medical expenditure bankruptcies," although it cannot be stated "with any degree of certainty whether medical spending was the most important cause of bankruptcy."
    * Explain that "four decades of studies have addressed the bankruptcy-medical spending connection" and that the results from those studies are much closer to their 17 percent estimate than to the 54.5 percent estimates of H & W.
    * Cite a 2002 Fay, Hurst, and White American Economic Review study, which found no statistical link between bankruptcies and health problems.
    * Cite a 1999 Domowitz and Sartain Journal of Finance study, which found that high medical debt raised the probability of bankruptcy for the tiny proportion of the population that had high medical debt, but that at the margin, credit cards were the largest single contribution to bankruptcy.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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       #743  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I love how CNN floats these four year old studies as though they were today's news.

    Here's a decent take on that study:
    Holy Mackeral! Nice find GROOVDAWG! (H5's groovy while leaping high in the air in slomo)

    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #744  
    Ok, I am glad you cleared that up. So medical bankruptcy being a major cause of bankruptcy is actual a myth since we have all the charity organizations that help people in need.
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  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #745  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Ok, I am glad you cleared that up. So medical bankruptcy being a major cause of bankruptcy is actual a myth since we have all the charity organizations that help people in need.
    What a classic strawman argument. One has nothing to do with the other, palandri
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. groovy's Avatar
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    #746  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Ok, I am glad you cleared that up. So medical bankruptcy being a major cause of bankruptcy is actual a myth since we have all the charity organizations that help people in need.
    How... what?!? I think you conflated two lines of reasoning.
  7. #747  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What a classic strawman argument. One has nothing to do with the other, palandri
    It's all goes back to your original statement: ...We DO pay for people here in America that aren't as well off. No person can be turned away from any hospital, and there are numerous charity orgs around that lend a hand to those in need. ....

    I am sorry, but that's all smoke and mirrors.

    I also read what John C. Goodman had to say. He could get a job as an illusionist in Las Vegas. "Now you see it; now you don't"
    Last edited by palandri; 07/29/2009 at 04:04 PM.
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  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #748  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I also read what John C. Goodman had to say. He could get a job as an illusionist in Las Vegas. "Now you see it; now you don't"
    What was it about that article you disagree with?
  9. #749  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Ok, I am glad you cleared that up. So medical bankruptcy being a major cause of bankruptcy is actual a myth since we have all the charity organizations that help people in need.
    Actually i would bet the major cause of bankruptcy is a personal one. Lack of planning, living beyond your means and assuming nothing bad will ever happen to you contribute more I think than lack of medical insurance. People dont save for a rainy day any more. Just my opinion.

    Why dont the dems and libs and all the folks who think its ok to pay for care for everyone else just pay extra? Or come up with a plan to make the participation on supporting these programs voluntary? I'll tell you why. There wouldn't be enough people who chose on their own to finance it. In order to make it work for even a couple of years people have to be forced (taxed) to make it happen. If people wont choose to give then it shouldnt work. I say that because last I heard this was a free country.
  10. #750  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    What was it about that article you disagree with?
    His whole purpose is stated in his bio, ...pro-free enterprise, private sector solutions to health care problems ... so he'll twist anything he can around so there is a pro-free enterprise, private sector solutions to health care problems.

    I am sorry but for me the old pro-free enterprise, private sector solutions to health care problems hasn't been working in years and they are all a bunch of spin doctors. I have experienced it, and friends have experienced. My gawd, it took an act of congress to let a women stay in the hospital a day after having a baby. This just isn't the right model when you're dealing with ones health.

    There is no use arguing it. I'll never convince you of anything different and you'll never convince me of anything different.
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  11. #751  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Actually i would bet the major cause of bankruptcy is a personal one. Lack of planning, living beyond your means and assuming nothing bad will ever happen to you contribute more I think than lack of medical insurance. People dont save for a rainy day any more. Just my opinion....
    All of us here, no matter how well we plan, are just one catastrophe away from disaster.
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  12. #752  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    All of us here, no matter how well we plan, are just one catastrophe away from disaster.
    While I concede that may be possible, it is not true for everyone. I however dont possess your crystal ball.

    That said, please copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that allows the protection from catastrophe and the gives the gov't the power to implement said protection.
  13. #753  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Actually i would bet the major cause of bankruptcy is a personal one. Lack of planning, living beyond your means and assuming nothing bad will ever happen to you contribute more I think than lack of medical insurance.
    I'm not sure you actually read the CNN link. It didn't reference an old study, but rather one that's about to be released from the American Journal of Medicine. And it directly addresses the perception that "living beyond your means" is the cause:


    "This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

    Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.

    "Unless you're a Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, you're one illness away from financial ruin in this country," says lead author Steffie Woolhandler, M.D., of the Harvard Medical School, in Cambridge, Mass. "If an illness is long enough and expensive enough, private insurance offers very little protection against medical bankruptcy, and that's the major finding in our study." "
    [emphasis mine]
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  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #754  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I'm not sure you actually read the CNN link. It didn't reference an old study, but rather one that's about to be released from the American Journal of Medicine. And it directly addresses the perception that "living beyond your means" is the cause:
    You are right. BUT, the new studies have the same authors as the old one and they use the same base statistic so, undoubtedly, they'll be using the same methodology. That methodology is quite flawed, IMO, for some of the reasons I outlined above.
  15. groovy's Avatar
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    #755  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    His whole purpose is stated in his bio, ...pro-free enterprise, private sector solutions to health care problems ... so he'll twist anything he can around so there is a pro-free enterprise, private sector solutions to health care problems.
    Ah, I see. Well, if you can't get past someone's position to see the points they're making then, I'm afraid you're right. You will never be convinced.

    That's kind of sad to me. Because it means you'll go along thinking that I and many good people are just selfish b*stards who only think of "me".
  16. #756  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    While I concede that may be possible, it is not true for everyone. I however dont possess your crystal ball.

    That said, please copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that allows the protection from catastrophe and the gives the gov't the power to implement said protection.
    LOL! Copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that disallows the government from protecting it's citizens from a catastrophe.

    or... there is a meteor speeding towards earth. The government could shoot a missile at it and destroy it and save thousands of lives, but someone says, "please copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that allows the protection from catastrophe and the gives the gov't the power to implement said protection."

    On a serious note, why are we even continuing this debate? People who are for national healthcare aren't going to change their mind, nor are people against going to change their mind.
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  17. #757  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    LOL! Copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that disallows the government from protecting it's citizens from a catastrophe.

    or... there is a meteor speeding towards earth. The government could shoot a missile at it and destroy it and save thousands of lives, but someone says, "please copy and paste the portion of the US Constitution that allows the protection from catastrophe and the gives the gov't the power to implement said protection."

    On a serious note, why are we even continuing this debate? People who are for national healthcare aren't going to change their mind, nor are people against going to change their mind.
    This morning perception (Australian guy) asked why we can't afford health care in this country since other countries do it. I gave some reasons, but on tonight's news I came up with another example.....you ready for this?.....our goverment wants to spend $700 million to save the wild horses/mustangs! $700 million! And get this, they also want to provide contraceptives for the horses! When asked why we should be doing this, one advocate of this said "well, we took this land from them." Okay....so....we are ready to give the land back to the horses....I'm thinking....shouldn't we give it back to the Indians first? This country is going totally bonkers. I think I have made it clear than I'm not a big advocate of hand outs, but, if we are going to give hand outs can we at least keep it to humans? I am pretty sure this type of spending ($700 million on horses) is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind for our government.

    Oh....and I do agree with you on something....I won't change your mind and you won't change my mind.

    By the way.....I mentioned in a post yesterday morning about Obama's plan for old people....you know....forget surgeries and treatments, just give them a pain pill and let them die in peace. I'm sure you heard that quote....but I'm curious....I wonder what you would have thought if instead of this coming from the almighty and wise Obama, it came from a CEO of a large evil insurance company? I'd love to hear your explanation of that oh so compassionate Obama care.
  18. groovy's Avatar
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    #758  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    This morning perception (Australian guy) asked why we can't afford health care in this country since other countries do it. I gave some reasons, but on tonight's news I came up with another example.....you ready for this?.....our goverment wants to spend $700 million to save the wild horses/mustangs! $700 million! And get this, they also want to provide contraceptives for the horses! When asked why we should be doing this, one advocate of this said "well, we took this land from them." Okay....so....we are ready to give the land back to the horses....I'm thinking....shouldn't we give it back to the Indians first? This country is going totally bonkers. I think I have made it clear than I'm not a big advocate of hand outs, but, if we are going to give hand outs can we at least keep it to humans? I am pretty sure this type of spending ($700 million on horses) is not what the Founding Fathers had in mind for our government.
    Farms in California who get their water from pumps in the Sacramento delta have been drying up lately. Crops are dead and farmers are going out of business. Why? The delta smelt fish was placed on the endangered species list. "Experts" said the fish were getting sucked up into the pumps so the solution is to limit pumping. And FYI, if the prospect of farms being put out of commission because of the smelt fish doesn't infuriate you, keep in mind that the country gets 50% of it's nuts from the California central valley.
  19. #759  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Farms in California who get their water from pumps in the Sacramento delta have been drying up lately. Crops are dead and farmers are going out of business. Why? The delta smelt fish was placed on the endangered species list. "Experts" said the fish were getting sucked up into the pumps so the solution is to limit pumping. And FYI, if the prospect of farms being put out of commission because of the smelt fish doesn't infuriate you, keep in mind that the country gets 50% of it's nuts from the California central valley.
    I saw the story on that....amazing....put people out of business for a fish. These people probably joined the list of the "47 million" without health coverage since they now couldn't pay their health premium. Quite ironic.....can't afford health coverage because of the government. Like I said....the country is going bonkers
  20. #760  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    You are right. BUT, the new studies have the same authors as the old one and they use the same base statistic so, undoubtedly, they'll be using the same methodology. That methodology is quite flawed, IMO, for some of the reasons I outlined above.
    Actually, the one you cited was from Hafvard, while the CNN one was from the American Journal of Medicine. It's obvious that you will automatically discount any study that disagrees with your ideological stance. But nice try!
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/29/2009 at 07:55 PM.

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