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  1. Micael's Avatar
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       #681  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Yup, all the more reason to keep it privately own by one of the white boy fat cats, or else it becomes communism and we'll all be wearing Mao jackets, standing in line for hours for a loaf of bread, and praising Kim Jong-il.
    My gosh, palandri! I think you're finally starting to come around!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #682  
    Quote Originally Posted by micael View Post
    my gosh, palandri! I think you're finally starting to come around!
    lol!
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #683  
    Quote Originally Posted by andidendel View Post
    Just an interesting read I came across today at CNN's site. Some of this, if accurate, is news to me.

    You'll lose 5 key freedoms under Obama's health care plan - Jul. 24, 2009
    Freedoms that we'll lose, according to this article:

    1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan

    The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.

    ...

    4. Freedom to keep your existing plan

    This is the freedom that the President keeps emphasizing. Yet the bills appear to say otherwise. It's worth diving into the weeds -- the territory where most pundits and politicians don't seem to have ventured.

    ...

    The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.

    The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

    The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.

    5. Freedom to choose your doctors

    The Senate bill requires that Americans buying through the exchanges -- and as we've seen, that will soon be most Americans -- must get their care through something called "medical home." Medical home is similar to an HMO. You're assigned a primary care doctor, and the doctor controls your access to specialists. The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.

    Under the proposals, the gatekeepers would theoretically guide patients to tests and treatments that have proved most cost-effective. The danger is that doctors will be financially rewarded for denying care, as were HMO physicians more than a decade ago. It was consumer outrage over despotic gatekeepers that made the HMOs so unpopular, and killed what was billed as the solution to America's health-care cost explosion.

    The bills do not specifically rule out fee-for-service plans as options to be offered through the exchanges. But remember, those plans -- if they exist -- would be barred from charging sick or elderly patients more than young and healthy ones. So patients would be inclined to game the system, staying in the HMO while they're healthy and switching to fee-for-service when they become seriously ill. "That would kill fee-for-service in a hurry," says Goodman.

    In reality, the flexible, employer-based plans that now dominate the landscape, and that Americans so cherish, could disappear far faster than the 5 year "grace period" that's barely being discussed.
    Emphases mine.

    Thought it was important to note what Obama has been telling you compared to what's really being proposed.
  4. #684  
    And we all know that when we get around 60 or so, every few months we get a visit from a government employee to emphasis the niceness of dying early to save the family and to keep one's dignity.
  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #685  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    And we all know that when we get around 60 or so, every few months we get a visit from a government employee to emphasis the niceness of dying early to save the family and to keep one's dignity.
    That raises an interesting question. Euthanasia does seem to have more widespread acceptance in countries with nationalized health care. I wonder if there's any undercurrent of resentment about having to pay for health care for the elderly.
  6. perception's Avatar
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    #686  
    Australia like canada have an excellent health care system which is run by the government and paid for by the government. We have freedom to vote and all pay taxes. So we vote in a competent government to administer the system. Voting in Australia is compulsory and we have a saying that goes if you didnt vote then dont whinge because you had a chance to have your say.

    The insurance based model of health care only helps the richer get rich and if anything hinders the greedy country which is the USA.

    Dont you think that if any other country had been the root cause behind this global depression then America would have wanted to know why it happened and what that country was going to do about. Not America, you bail out banks and let people die on the streets. Your rights in America mean nothing without money.
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #687  
    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    Australia like canada have an excellent health care system which is run by the government and paid for by the government. We have freedom to vote and all pay taxes. So we vote in a competent government to administer the system. Voting in Australia is compulsory and we have a saying that goes if you didnt vote then dont whinge because you had a chance to have your say.
    Would that be except for the one-third of the country that opts for private insurance?

    The insurance based model of health care only helps the richer get rich and if anything hinders the greedy country which is the USA.
    Great way to start out your first post.

    Dont you think that if any other country had been the root cause behind this global depression then America would have wanted to know why it happened and what that country was going to do about. Not America, you bail out banks and let people die on the streets. Your rights in America mean nothing without money.
    Yes, I stepped over a dead body just the other day.
  8. perception's Avatar
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    #688  
    Well done. So you know how to use cut and paste.

    All Australians whether we have private health care or not are entitled to use the public health system at no cost!!!! If we do choose to use private health insurance the public health system still pays for a portion of the system.

    No you may not have stepped over a dead body. But that is called an exaggeration. Hey but if you think that the health care in the USA is better then that offered in Australia than offer an argument. Dont rubbish mine.

    I notice that you didnt dispute the fact that the USA was behind the current global economic downturn. So there may be hope for you yet.
  9. #689  
    Bujin wrote: Nice use of the term "illegals", by the way....very dehumanizing. Congrats on that.)

    Okay....I'll bite....what do you call someone who arrives in the United States in a way that is not legal. I'm just really looking forward to this answer....since it can't be "illegal"....how would you label them? It's like we can't use the word "terrorist" anymore (very hateful to people running around killing people in the name of Allah)....and hey....don't dare call it "swine" flu!

    So again....what should we call these people who are here in a not legal way?
  10. #690  
    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    Well done. So you know how to use cut and paste.

    All Australians whether we have private health care or not are entitled to use the public health system at no cost!!!! If we do choose to use private health insurance the public health system still pays for a portion of the system.

    No you may not have stepped over a dead body. But that is called an exaggeration. Hey but if you think that the health care in the USA is better then that offered in Australia than offer an argument. Dont rubbish mine.

    I notice that you didnt dispute the fact that the USA was behind the current global economic downturn. So there may be hope for you yet.
    Yes....we folks here are responsible for everything. Have a major earthquake....don't worry....the US will come to the rescue. A Nazi over running Europe?....no problem....the US will rescue your *** (by the way, not saying Australia is in Europe). An Emperial Emperor decides to take control of the Pacific?....again....no problem....the good ole US of A will kick their *** to. What....you say a tsunami just killed a 100,000 people....hang on....here comes the US of A. You say a dictator has just taken over a small country in the middle east, and will likely move on and take over other middle east countries? Hang on....here comes the US to kick him out.....and don't worry....we'll come back later and finish the job we should have finished then.

    Just speaking for myself....and I really don't have much problem with you guys "down under".....but we've saved too many people and countries to worry about you pointing fingers and saying we've destroyed the world economy. Oh sure, Obama runs around the world and apologizes for any and everything we've done and will do, but no apologies from me. The US will remain strong as long as we keep the socialists from ruining us.
  11. #691  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wow. And it's not even from a right wing whacko's blog.
    LOL I know! A lot of people attack and denigrate everyone they disagree with. Many of them never even grow up.

    Chuck Norris has something to say about the new bill. Those who disagree, attack and denigrate away:

    6 Reasons Obama-Care Is Bad Medicine
    http://townhall.com/columnists/Chuck...s_bad_medicine
  12. #692  
    Australia, I believe, is currently working to reform it's health care system. Costs are projected to reach unsustainable levels. (Germany also had to reform their system recently because of costs.)

    REFORMING AUSTRALIAN HEALTH CARE - Kevin Rudd

    I've already stated that I'm against government-run health care simply on the basis of our constitution. There are many points besides that to counter such a system and cost is a major one.

    People hold up Germany, France, and now, Australia, as examples of government-run programs. Let's look at their populations:

    Germany: 82 million
    France: 65 million
    Australia: 22 million
    United States: 307 million

    As you can see, the US would have to cover 14 times the number of people as does Australia. The level of bureaucracy (and the US LOVES it some bureaucracy) would be far greater than these other nations. Our Medicare program is currently trillions of dollars in the red. The government has shown that it cannot efficiently manage health care.
  13. #693  
    Another interesting viewpoint. This time from a liberal

    David S. Broder - Our New Medical Judges?
  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #694  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    A Nazi over running Europe?....no problem....the US will rescue your *** (by the way, not saying Australia is in Europe).
    Actually, we *did* send troops to Australia during WWII to help augment their defenses.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #695  
    Quote Originally Posted by nelson1900 View Post
    LOL I know! A lot of people attack and denigrate everyone they disagree with. Many of them never even grow up.

    Chuck Norris has something to say about the new bill. Those who disagree, attack and denigrate away:

    6 Reasons Obama-Care Is Bad Medicine
    Chuck Norris : 6 Reasons Obama-Care Is Bad Medicine - Townhall.com
    Far be it from me to argue with Chuck.... what, are you kidding?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #696  
    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    All Australians whether we have private health care or not are entitled to use the public health system at no cost!!!! If we do choose to use private health insurance the public health system still pays for a portion of the system.
    And the government is trying to get more people to invest in the private system. Why? Because, as has already been mentioned, Medicare is running out of money.

    No you may not have stepped over a dead body. But that is called an exaggeration. Hey but if you think that the health care in the USA is better then that offered in Australia than offer an argument. Dont rubbish mine.
    You had an argument? It looked like a bunch of anti-American rant to me. I'll re-read it and see if I can find a real argument in there somewhere. Have to get back to you on that one.

    I notice that you didnt dispute the fact that the USA was behind the current global economic downturn.
    Of course! When all the other countries want to try to capitalize on America's success then they have to also join in America's downturns. You can't take the good without the bad.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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       #697  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Another interesting viewpoint. This time from a liberal

    David S. Broder - Our New Medical Judges?
    Interesting...

    Obama is recommending that the successor agency, IMAC, be smaller and potentially more decisive. Under his plan, the president would name five physicians or other health-care-savvy members to serve for five-year terms on its board, picking one of them as chairman. Like the nominees to the Fed and the Supreme Court, they would have to be confirmed by the Senate.
    Oh joy! Just like the Supreme Court Justices, we'll get to play politics with our IMAC Medical Judges on 5 year cycles.

    Think of the wonderful bio/medical/ethics Litmus Tests we'll be able to employ....

    Are you, sir or madam, in favor of:

    Late Term Abortions
    Euthanasia
    Gene Replacement Therapy
    Stem Cell Research
    Human Organ Cloning
    Selective Sterilizations
    the list goes on and on....

    lovely....
    Last edited by Micael; 07/28/2009 at 11:51 AM.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #698  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Actually, we *did* send troops to Australia during WWII to help augment their defenses.
    Yup....my now deceased father-in-law (silver star recipient while he was in Europe) was stationed in Australia briefly...back when Gen McArthur was stationed there.
  19. #699  
    Quote Originally Posted by perception View Post
    Australia like canada have an excellent health care system which is run by the government and paid for by the government. We have freedom to vote and all pay taxes. So we vote in a competent government to administer the system. Voting in Australia is compulsory and we have a saying that goes if you didnt vote then dont whinge because you had a chance to have your say.

    The insurance based model of health care only helps the richer get rich and if anything hinders the greedy country which is the USA.

    Dont you think that if any other country had been the root cause behind this global depression then America would have wanted to know why it happened and what that country was going to do about. Not America, you bail out banks and let people die on the streets. Your rights in America mean nothing without money.
    Hmmm I was just thinking about taking my family on a vacation to Australia. Should I expect that we will be hated upon when we get there? If it's just you, could you let us know whereabouts you live so I pick a different spot for our trip. I'd hate to run into you and subject my kids to your hate America attitude.
  20. groovy's Avatar
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    #700  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Hmmm I was just thinking about taking my family on a vacation to Australia. Should I expect that we will be hated upon when we get there? If it's just you, could you let us know whereabouts you live so I pick a different spot for our trip. I'd hate to run into you and subject my kids to your hate America attitude.
    Nah, I don't think he speaks for the majority (at least not the majority of working people). You'll have a great time in Australia. Just steer clear of conversations about free trade or global warming.

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