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  1. #661  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Profits nowadays are lower than before because medical costs are going up--that's why the insurance industry is so eager to have it mandatory that everyone is covered by health insurance--that 47 million more customers they could get.

    When added to the 20% "administrative costs," private insurance companies use up at least 24% of the money you give them for stuff other than improving your health--what a waste--when Medicare does it for 2-3%.

    I bet your two step-sons don't consider refusing car insurance. Why? It's mandatory and is affordable. If they go without health insurance, when they get sick and go to the ER, their "free" visits cost us all more in premiums. That's the same for the 47 million uninsured.
    Wrong again....first....geez....this 47 million number is so ridiculous....anyway....they want the young folks because that is premium coming in and little going out so they can enroll those with health problems without having to worry about pre-existing issues on unhealth people. This is good....it gets everyone covered. You can't ask insurance companies to only cover the unhealth, they have to have good risks to. This also gets premiums down.

    Auto insurance is cheap because it only covers MAJOR problems and "major" is something along the lines of the value of your car (let's say normally around what, $20k to $40k), while health insurance can be quite higher. That isn't rocket science there. Also, imagine if your auto insurance was like today's health plans. Everytime you went in for gas....you would pay a $10 co-pay and the rest covered....or you have a flat tire.....no problem....$50 co-pay per tire.....or your engine has major problems.....$100 co-pay. Instead, you only pay for catastrophic. You know what's odd though...we were able to "require" auto insurance but without a government sponsored plan. How can this be????
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #662  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    By the way, lack of insurance is considered the 4th highest cause of death in this country yearly-...
    I don't expect we'll see any forthcoming proof of that either.
  3. #663  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    ..And you think that private insurance companies are ANY better?

    Because you even ever had an X-ray for shortness of breath would be a reason to disqualify you from any private insurance at all (or make your premiums insanely high). Scandals erupted when exclusions like acne and pregnancy were recently listed on a health insurance disqualify list.
    Oh stop it.....just do like Obama says and take a pill for the pain....that's the ticket....especially if you are an old person....just take a pill and move on. Before you burn me, you do realize that is what Obama said to a woman regarding surgery for her elderly mother? Is that surgery really needed? Maybe a pain pill would do the trick? Compassion baby....compassion.
  4. JC Strat's Avatar
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    #664  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    You do know that the NRA is a nonprofit agency--considered a "charity" and giving money to it is considered "charitable giving."
    MoveOn.Org and ACORN are also nonprofit organizations.

    My point is that there are similar organizations on the left. Moreover, political contributions among liberals eclipsed giving among conservatives this last election cycle, suggesting that liberals are now more likely to be contributing for political reasons.

    But congratulations on taking an unabashedly positive virtue - charity - and twisting it to your purposes.

    Generosity is meaningful when it is personal and specific. When a government forces people to give their property to nonspecific others under penalty of incarceration, the moral high ground has been abandoned. It's easy to be generous with other people's money and property.
  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #665  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    By missing all the details, you've missed the whole point of the studies.
    Which is exactly what the previous studies seem to have done. The estimates for medical error-related deaths are inflated.

    JAMA -- Abstract: Estimating Hospital Deaths Due to Medical Errors: Preventability Is in the Eye of the Reviewer, July 25, 2001, Hayward and Hofer 286 (4): 415

    And, I might add, you missed my point which is not that 40,000 or 20,000 deaths related to medical errors is acceptable. It is that very, very often, statistics are wrong and even the best statistics can be twisted to mislead people.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #666  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    And the Republican-sponsored bills in Congress are...?

    Still looking....

    Still looking...
    What a joke. Just how many Republican bills do you think would be passed in our one party congress?

    Republicans are at the table and willing to contribute ideas to those willing to open their minds and ears.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #667  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Actually, epidemiologists make it their life's work to eliminate ALL the possible "confounding factors" that may also cause the same problem.

    The epidemiologists who have come up with these numbers have already eliminated everything you have mentioned (and more).

    They say that if you take all the people who died with a disease which was controllable in its early stages if they could have gone to the doctor (and they were uninsured--because some people may have had insurance and chose not to go to the doctor)--that would sum to become the 4th highest cause of deaths in America yearly.

    Give people access to healthcare early and you can save many lives.
    You just made my point. If even people with insurance don't seek medical advice, how do they know that all of the uninsured people they counted would have sought medical advice if they were insured?
  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #668  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    His true position is very simple, and has been consistent since long before he ran for Prez....he's a supporter of single-payer in concept, but it's not politically feasible given the current structure. He talked about it in '04, wrote about it in Audacity of Hope, and spent his entire campaign stating that single payer wasn't going to be an option.

    So there's plenty of documented evidence of his consistent message, but it conflicts with the fact that you like to "think he flipped". Reality should matter, even if it conflicts with the way you'd like to perceive it.
    Sorry, this got lost in the flurry of new messages. So, if it was so simple and consistent, why does the very article you pointed to not state that? The best they can seem to drudge up is that his position hasn't changed "drastically". In fact, they fully admit that they believe his position then was to pander to the Democratic base.

    Also, he himself admits that the only reason he doesn't support a single-payer solution now is that it's not feasible with the current system. If that system changes, then what? So, I wouldn't characterize is as a conspiracy theory to think that he would keep pushing for a single-payer solution, albeit in an incremental approach.
  9. #669  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Wrong again....first....geez....this 47 million number is so ridiculous....
    It's estimated that illegal immigrants account for approximately 15% of that 47 million. So if it makes a difference that it's only 40 million, then we can use that one. I'm not sure it makes a difference, but okay....
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  10. #670  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It's estimated that illegal immigrants account for approximately 15% of that 47 million. So if it makes a difference that it's only 40 million, then we can use that one. I'm not sure it makes a difference, but okay....
    So now we're down to only 7 million illegals? From 20 or even 11 that has been reported repeatedly? Wow they are moving out fast. If the lack of healthcare is making them leave then there's another perfectly good reason NOT to have govt care.
  11. #671  
    Just an interesting read I came across today at CNN's site. Some of this, if accurate, is news to me.

    You'll lose 5 key freedoms under Obama's health care plan - Jul. 24, 2009
  12. #672  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    So now we're down to only 7 million illegals? From 20 or even 11 that has been reported repeatedly? Wow they are moving out fast. If the lack of healthcare is making them leave then there's another perfectly good reason NOT to have govt care.
    We're not "down to only 7 million illegal immigrants*": the simple fact (I know you don't really like facts, but this is another one) is that not all illegal immigrants are uninsured. The Pew Center estimates that 59% of the nation's illegal immigrants are uninsured, compared with 25% of legal immigrants and 14% of U.S. citizens.


    *(Nice use of the term "illegals", by the way....very dehumanizing. Congrats on that.)
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/27/2009 at 03:33 PM.
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  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #673  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    This may be a hard concept, so I'll try to type slowly: not all illegal immigrants are uninsured. The Pew Center estimates that 59% of the nation's illegal immigrants are uninsured, compared with 25% of legal immigrants and 14% of U.S. citizens.


    *(Nice use of the term "illegals", by the way....very dehumanizing. Congrats on that.)
    Please ease up on the belittling tone. And the point isn't how many are uninsured or not. The point is that they are illegally here, and should not qualify for free healthcare. Charity and faith based organizations can and do provide services to these people, but they are not "entitled" to free healthcare because they are not "legally" here.

    There's nothing dehumanizing about the term illegal, btw. It's a fact.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #674  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What a joke. Just how many Republican bills do you think would be passed in our one party congress?

    Republicans are at the table and willing to contribute ideas to those willing to open their minds and ears.
    Which is why they've added 160 amendments to the current health care bill, based upon Republican concerns.
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    #675  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Which is why they've added 160 amendments to the current health care bill, based upon Republican concerns.
    Yes, they are titrating the bill to make it as big-government as possible while still squeaking through with just enough votes to pass.

    Because of the election cycles, lobbying pressures, and the lack of term limits, government is not truly progressive. Free markets are far more progressive and dynamic than a government can be. We haven't had anything remotely resembling a health free market since medicare was enacted.

    If you want a preview gov't health will look like, just check out Medicare. Or the VA. Chronically overbudget, chronically in fiscal crisis, and care that frankly can leave a lot to be desired. Just look at Medicare and social security impending bankrupcy. Check out our recent national spending spreee and what that does to the national interest that we pay on our debt, and tell me that it is a fiscally sound idea to put the government in charge of all of health care. People elect the bozos who offer instant gratification and no pain. Put it off on another group or better yet future generations. This is just another cookie jar for big-government politicians to dip their hand into.
  16. #676  
    Great column. Leftist propaganda wins through sheer broadcast repetition, and exponential entitlement building. But the truth is much more powerful, and always exposes it in the end, to the refrain of liberal denials and attacks.

    ObamaCare basically means that every time you are sick or injured, you will have a clerk from the Department of Motor Vehicles telling your doctor what he can and cannot do.
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  17. #677  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    *(Nice use of the term "illegals", by the way....very dehumanizing. Congrats on that.)
    Oh boo hoo. They are criminals in this country illegally. Sorry if that offends your leftist sensibilities. Perhaps you'd prefer trespassers, freeloaders. Oh wait those are offensive too huh.

    Don't you prefer undocumented workers? Only one question. What if they aren't working? Do we call em undocumented non-workers now?

    Either way they are here illegally. Makes them illegal immigrants.

    "a rose by any other name is still a rose"
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       #678  
    Quote Originally Posted by andidendel View Post
    Just an interesting read I came across today at CNN's site. Some of this, if accurate, is news to me.

    You'll lose 5 key freedoms under Obama's health care plan - Jul. 24, 2009
    Wow. And it's not even from a right wing whacko's blog. Amazing... somebody finally read the bill.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #679  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    ...Either way they are here illegally. Makes them illegal immigrants.

    "a rose by any other name is still a rose"
    That's what the Native Americans said about the white man.
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  20. #680  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wow. And it's not even from a right wing whacko's blog. Amazing... somebody finally read the bill.
    Yup, all the more reason to keep it privately own by one of the white boy fat cats, or else it becomes communism and we'll all be wearing Mao jackets, standing in line for hours for a loaf of bread, and praising Kim Jong-il.
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