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  1. #621  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Have you entirely missed the part that NOBODY is stating we will end up with a government run health care program? And that every plan allows for people to keep their insurance if it's working for them.
    The entire argument that "we will lose private insurance" is a conspiracy theory, created to frighten the less educated and thereby guarantee that the richest maintain the status quo.

    I would urge all involved to remember who stands to gain by maintaining the current system, and to wonder why you have been convinced that benefitting the richest will "trickle down" to you. However, I say this fully knowing that you will ignore said advice.
    You miss my point that Private can't compete with a Government program, the Private will lose. Why? Well....when a private company needs to raise money, they issue more stock or debt instruments. An investor examines the company, and if he/she likes the scenario, invests in the company. Now, this investor will demand a return on his/her money...correct? Therefore that investor wants a profit so they can make something on their investment, correct? But, it is the investor's decision to invest....no one makes them, correct?

    So, you and I are the "shareholders" in the US Goverment. Here's the difference, when the government needs money they don't ask us if we want to "invest" further, they simply take our money (through various taxes, or "surcharges", or sometimes even calling them "contributions", sounds so much nicer) and we have no choice. So, if the government doesn't have to make money to keep a program going, and all they have to do is raise taxes to fund it more, would you agree that the goverment has an advantage?

    You say....no....this will cause the private sector to become more focused because of the competition. But again.....if you need to make a profit to return to investors, the companies have a chunk they have to worry about that the government doesn't have to worry about because again, the government doesn't ask us if we want to "contribute" more, they tell us we do. So you now say, "exactly", a good example of why private companies shouldn't be involved because we don't need profit in health care! Well, the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) comes along and says universal coverage increases costs! Now, you may disagree with this....but I'll bet if they said the opposite you'd be all over that.

    So, I said all that because many feel it may start out as you and other liberals are saying, that folks can keep their current coverage....but for how long? How long before employers decide to dump their current plan leaving employees having to go on the government plan. Then it gets interesting and scary.
  2. #622  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You miss my point that Private can't compete with a Government program, the Private will lose. Why? Well....when a private company needs to raise money, they issue more stock or debt instruments. An investor examines the company, and if he/she likes the scenario, invests in the company. Now, this investor will demand a return on his/her money...correct? Therefore that investor wants a profit so they can make something on their investment, correct? But, it is the investor's decision to invest....no one makes them, correct?
    PolitiFact | Some private health insurance can survive public option
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  3. #623  
    So you want to get in a battle of links back and forth that back up our statements? Liberals disagree with that part of the story, and I'm not surprised because they know that scares people. So liberal "think groups" say things like that article....big whoop. What does that prove? That liberals disagree with conservatives? Wow....you may be on to something. You and your liberal buddies are living a lie if you won't admit what the bigger goal is....gather in more people....more voters....more power. Not a scare tactic, just stating what the obvious intent is.....you disagree....big whoop.
  4. groovy's Avatar
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    #624  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The Institute of Medicine seems comfortable stating that the lack of medical coverage (due to lack of insurance) is indeed the causal factor:

    Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations - Institute of Medicine

    Is there any data proving that the availability would not have saved them?
    I haven't read the studies yet but I am very curious how they isolate lack of health care insurance as a causal factor. I suspect that for very many uninsured there are quite a few causal factors. People who seek regular care tend to have better lifestyles overall. On the other hand, people who lack health care insurance may have a number of other extenuating circumstances (i.e. homelessness, mental illness, lack of immigration documentation, etc).

    I've been wary of numbers like this for quite some time. I recall a decade ago, the IOM came out with a study that showed 90,000 people a year die of medical errors. A few months later they retracted and said the number was somewhere between 40,000 and 90,000. That same year, a JAMA article put the number of deaths per year at a quarter of a million. CNN took that and ran, publishing a story claiming medical errors were the 5th largest cause of death in the United States! Then in 2001 another JAMA published study said all of those numbers were inflated due to errors in methodology.

    "There are 3 types of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics"
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    #625  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    A government run health care program is not being considered:

    PolitiFact | Obama health plan does not call for government-run health care

    Every plan allows for people to keep their insurance if it's working for them:

    PolitiFact | Obama's plan expands existing system
    Well, we don't really know how far this administration will try to take it. Candidate Obama was a proponent of single-payer, universal health care, saying "first we gotta take back the White House". President Obama said a single-payer solution is not an option. Obama 2.0 says a single-payer solution is not an option "right now". Who should we believe?
  6. #626  
    Bujin wrote: Is there any data proving that the availability would not have saved them?

    I'm going to a funeral tomorrow for the brother of a friend who went into a diabetic coma last Monday, and he died 5 days later...he was 47. I happen to know this families background and know that they all had health insurance and yet he couldn't be saved. Now you could say this is an example of how our health care sucks in this country, but more likely, and it is a bit sad, likely due to this individual not doing the best at managing his health situation....no doctor, health plan, or goverment can make a person take care of themself.

    By the way.....do you refute the fact that people from other countries come to the US for treatment? I see examples of this all the time, but wonder if you believe these stories or think them propaganda? What is odd is I never hear stories of people going to other countries (that is, leaving the US) for health care unless it is for experimental treatment. Yes, I know, they wouldn't have to if insurance companies covered experimental treatments....but guess what....the government isn't going to cover that either. Isn't that "rationed" care? OMG!
  7. #627  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Bujin wrote: Is there any data proving that the availability would not have saved them?

    I'm going to a funeral tomorrow for the brother of a friend who went into a diabetic coma last Monday, and he died 5 days later...he was 47. I happen to know this families background and know that they all had health insurance and yet he couldn't be saved. Now you could say this is an example of how our health care sucks in this country, but more likely, and it is a bit sad, likely due to this individual not doing the best at managing his health situation....no doctor, health plan, or goverment can make a person take care of themself.
    My condolences. I wouldn't say that it's an example of how health care "sucks". Our actual treatment is tremendous...the issue is that, unlike your friend's brother, not everyone has access to the same level of care.

    My wife just had her gall bladder removed. Had I not had insurance, that relatively minor issue would have run me thousands of dollars that I can't spare. We would have run the very real risk of having to choose between her health and our house. That's the burden that our citizens face every day...and it's criminal in this country.

    By the way.....do you refute the fact that people from other countries come to the US for treatment? I see examples of this all the time, but wonder if you believe these stories or think them propaganda?
    For those with access, our treatment is great. Those who come here for treatment can afford to pay out of pocket. We need to separate "care" from "access to care". One is great here, while the other....not so much.

    The current annual expenditure on health care per family is $13,000, while the annual salary of an uneducated, mimimum wage earner is $15,000. If you do the math, you can see why it's an untenable position without insurance.

    We can have an intelligent discussion about how to solve these problems, but for folks to come here and say "it's a fine system that needs some fine-tuning" is silly.
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  8. #628  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, we don't really know how far this administration will try to take it. Candidate Obama was a proponent of single-payer, universal health care, saying "first we gotta take back the White House". President Obama said a single-payer solution is not an option. Obama 2.0 says a single-payer solution is not an option "right now". Who should we believe?
    Obama has said he supports the principles of single payer if we started the system from scratch, but has never stated he intended to institute single payer. He stated that both as a candidate and as president.

    Your post, to me, encapsulates the entire issue in our national political debate. People aren't arguing about reality, based upon actual issues, but about their conspiracy-theorizing about what the administration "really intends to do", or "how far will they take it"?

    I think there is intelligent debate about cost, etc. that can be discussed. However, people are too polarized about "socialized medicine" and the other propoganda that has no basis in actual policy or reality.

    That's why 30-some pages later, no actual progress is made.
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    #629  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Obama has said he supports the principles of single payer if we started the system from scratch, but has never stated he intended to institute single payer. He stated that both as a candidate and as president.


    Your post, to me, encapsulates the entire issue in our national political debate. People aren't arguing about reality, based upon actual issues, but about their conspiracy-theorizing about what the administration "really intends to do", or "how far will they take it"?
    Don't read too much into that single post. It was in response to your single post. But, I will say that we need to keep an eye on political agendas. The phrase "trust but verify" should be amended when speaking about politicians to "never trust until verified". That goes for both sides of the aisle and all shades in between.
  10. #630  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    [url= - Obama Flip Flops on Health Care[/url]
    If you look here, you'll see that video addressed in some detail - you may find it informative:

    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/16/barack-obama/obama-statements-single-payer-have-changed-bit/
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    #631  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    If you look here, you'll see that video addressed in some detail - you may find it informative:

    PolitiFact | Obama statements on single-payer have changed a bit
    Well, if you look around the web you'll find single-payer proponents and I have one thing in common: we all think Obama flipped on this issue. I can see that his supporters are willing to give him a pass on this but it doesn't get us any closer to identifying his true position.
  12. #632  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, if you look around the web you'll find single-payer proponents and I have one thing in common: we all think Obama flipped on this issue. I can see that his supporters are willing to give him a pass on this but it doesn't get us any closer to identifying his true position.
    His true position is very simple, and has been consistent since long before he ran for Prez....he's a supporter of single-payer in concept, but it's not politically feasible given the current structure. He talked about it in '04, wrote about it in Audacity of Hope, and spent his entire campaign stating that single payer wasn't going to be an option.

    So there's plenty of documented evidence of his consistent message, but it conflicts with the fact that you like to "think he flipped". Reality should matter, even if it conflicts with the way you'd like to perceive it.
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/26/2009 at 08:20 PM.
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  13. #633  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The Institute of Medicine seems comfortable stating that the lack of medical coverage (due to lack of insurance) is indeed the causal factor:

    Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations - Institute of Medicine

    Is there any data proving that the availability would not have saved them?
    Am I supposed to be wow'd by the Institute of Medicine? I'm not. You'd think a group like that would know a lack of insurance isn't a cause of death.

    A lack of health insurance is not, never has been nor ever will be the cause of someones death. If you disagree present ONE, just one death certificate that lists the COD as lack of health insurance. Any one with a single grain of common sense knows there isn't one.
    These "facts" are just more fear mongering from the left. If they convince the public that a lack of insurance can kill you it will be much easier to get to govt controlled healthcare.

    If we start talking about homeowner's insurance are you gonna puke up some ridiculous bit about how many homes were lost do to a lack of insurance? How about flood insurance? pet insurance? Mom,"sorry Bobby we lost the dog because we didnt have pet insurance". Bobby, "you mean it wasn't the truck that hit him?" "Of course not Bobby, everyone knows that a lack of insurance causes the loss of thousands of pets each year".
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    #634  
    Are you wilfully thick? Of course it won't be listed on their death certificate as the cause of death. I personally know someone who died because her lack of insurance and money kep her from the doctors. No the cause of death wasn't lack of health insurance, but if she had health insurance - or money - with early treatment for her cancer, would probably still be alive. Don't be stupid. In a rich country like the U.S.A. it is unconscionable that some folks have no or little access to health care.
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  15. #635  
    There is a good reason why every other wealthy industrialized country has switched to some form of universal health care: The simple observation that letting profit seeking corporations manage health care leaves so many without coverage. They seek only to insure those that they can make money from and spent a very significant portion of their revenue on weeding people out and negotiating rates.

    I agree with Bujin that the way health insurance works in this country is criminal. It's great care if you have it, work for a company that provides it, etc.. What if you get sick? What if you're too sick to work and lose your job? It doesn't take much to be without health insurance. And to add insult to injury, the rates you pay will be significantly higher than those negotiated rates that the insurance companies worked out.

    I am a fairly healthy individual. I started my own company and applied for private health insurance (in my state I cannot get a company plan without more members). I was denied because I had gone to marriage counseling. From that point on I had to tell all other insurers that I had been denied by the first one. I did get health insurance but am paying more than I should based on my age / health and have a high deductible.

    The good news is that we have no shortage of examples around the world of different systems as well as what works and what doesn't. We should be able to learn from those other countries and pick and chose the best system for ourselves. An easy country to compare ourselves to is Germany: their insurance is mostly employer based like ours. Everyone pays according to their income and if you're unemployed you don't lose your health insurance. The downside is that the medical industry isn't as profitable and many doctors are furious. It's not perfect but at least no one goes broke because they get sick.

    I don't understand why this breaks down to right vs. left. Any resaonable person should be able to see that we are not meeting the needs of our citizens and that we need to change the system.

    Health insurance isn't a commodity like corn that you can leave to market forces. Market forces are what pushes people who need it out of their health insurance. Read about the death spiral:
    www dot fatwallet dot com/forums/finance/650193
  16. #636  
    Quote Originally Posted by frankrizzo View Post
    ...I don't understand why this breaks down to right vs. left....
    The right thinks me, the left thinks we.
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  17. #637  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Are you wilfully thick? Of course it won't be listed on their death certificate as the cause of death. I personally know someone who died because her lack of insurance and money kep her from the doctors. No the cause of death wasn't lack of health insurance, but if she had health insurance - or money - with early treatment for her cancer, would probably still be alive. Don't be stupid. In a rich country like the U.S.A. it is unconscionable that some folks have no or little access to health care.
    Nope not thick, willfully or otherwise.
    Sorry your friend died. Truly sad. I wonder would she be happy to know youre using her death to promote your agenda?

    So we know she died from cancer. Unfortunately lots of people with healthcare insurance die from cancer. Even the ones who get treatment early.

    Are you a doctor, perhaps an oncologist? If no to either then it's only a wishful and uneducated opinion that your friend might be alive. Even if you were, doctors and specialists aren't always right or able to save everyone.

    In a rich country like the US. Hmmm, since we're so rich whats after healthcare? What else do we lack that you would like our "rich country" to provide next? Do you have so much extra that you want to help fund the healthcare for everyone else? If someone decides that the next "right" is a Bentley in the garage are you going to be behind that one too? We are a rich country after all and everyone should be entitled to a fine luxury car right? Even those who never drive or are happy with their Honda?

    Do you feel superior when you call someone stupid because they have a different opinion than yours?
  18. #638  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Am I supposed to be wow'd by the Institute of Medicine? I'm not. You'd think a group like that would know a lack of insurance isn't a cause of death.
    You'll note I said the deaths were lack of medical coverage, with lack of insurance being the causal factor. But I'll choose to assume that you didn't read closely and just missed that, rather than assuming that you were being disingenuous.

    These "facts" are just more fear mongering from the left. If they convince the public that a lack of insurance can kill you it will be much easier to get to govt controlled healthcare.
    The Institute of Medicine is a lefty organization now....and you think the left is fear mongering? Conservatives are starting to see commies under every rock.

    So we know she died from cancer. Unfortunately lots of people with healthcare insurance die from cancer. Even the ones who get treatment early.
    Do you bother having health insurance? If so, why?

    Because you know that access to quality health care is no guarantee of survival from cancer or other serious illnesses, but it sure does make survival more likely. And with the added bonus of not losing your house to try to pay for your care
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/26/2009 at 11:07 PM.
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  19. #639  
    I support President Obama. He was elected on a platform that included healthcare reform and I expect him to deliver on that promise. However, I also support caps on malpractice lawsuits. Too many doctors are paying insanely high malpractice insurance rates. Or as Former President Bush remarked "Too many OB/GYN's aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

    So let's get real health care reform passed this year. And let's include limits on Med Malpractice lawsuits!
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    #640  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    The right thinks me, the left thinks we.
    How can you say that in good conscience?

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