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  1. #481  
    Its kind of funny how some people forget that it was government programs like NASA that got us to the moon, but in the same breath say government can't do anything right. And then give the credit to capitalism instead of government spending. What if we contracted getting to the moon to Boeing or McDonnell Douglas instead of NASA? Would that have been a good idea? Would you trust your life that McDonnell Douglas or Boeing, without any government help, would have beat out the russians and saved america for us? I wouldn't.

    And this ain't some kind of scarecrow, or what do you call it, straw-man kind of argument. This talk about NASA ain't that much different from health care, it comes down to do you trust that private companies, when your life or the life of your grandkids is on the line. Especially with all of the ruckus all of these companies put us thru with this stock market collapse, it seems to me that companies are out to make money as a top priority, and if there is a way to make money and get out of paying for something, like your meds, or something like pre-existing conditions, they'll do it. We all see them doing that every day.

    So having an alternative program people can go to in case they feel that the private insurance aint treating them right, thats a good thing. And its happening now anyways. I can tell you a lot of people are getting fed up with private insurance and instead are quite happy getting their care, at least veterans like me, with the government at the VA hospital.
  2. munoz0451's Avatar
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    #482  
    The government encouraged all of these loans and made them possible .. My wife works for a bank and is a loan officer still. They government and banks were equal partners and both political parties had there hands in it. BTW not all banks wanted the bailout money it was pushed on them. If you think the government had no part in these loans going to people who would have otherwise not qualified you are mistaken.

    It was a combination of giving people what they don't qualify for, greedy consumers, greedy brokers, greedy real estate agents, and the banks.
  3. Micael's Avatar
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       #483  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    the point is theres a whole lot of rationing going on already. if the VA is not any worse
    at rationing than the insurance companies, which is what the VA doctors are tellin me, folks talking about there being a whole lot more rationing going on just cause it's a government program, one they ain't even seen mind you, they're just spouting off a lot of hot air.
    Sorry. You lost me. There is no "rationing" in private healthcare.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #484  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    This is a letter to the editor from a very misinformed reader--not the work of a researcher. This isn't evidence of anything.

    The moon-landing was faked!

    There, you can now quote me on another website and claim I'm some expert...
    Shooting the messenger doesn't invalidate the data. Really, your tactics are bordering on childish.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. munoz0451's Avatar
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    #485  
    Government is good at some things ... I am a Marine and I don't know of a better organization. So what is your point .. The government can go to the moon so lets let them put private health care out of business. The governments job is to protect us and provide roads, bridges, laws etc. Not to run car companies, banks, and hospitals.
  6. #486  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Those profit margins make sense--the remaining 20% of waste come from administrative costs (or what they claim as admin costs)--so the generally accepted number 24% comes from combining the two.

    As for inefficiencies, just by throwing out "as we all know how efficient the government is" (with a Cheney chuckle, no doubt) doesn't say a thing.

    Have you actually had to deal with private insurance? A trip to the ER for kidney stones ended in 18 different bills for me: one each for the ER, each doctor, the CT Scan, the radiologist who read it--each bill coming to me multiple times, threatening my credit of I didn't pay it, each demanding my insurance number--even though I gave it in the ER and on the phone to each biller multiple times. It was crazy!! I can't imagine how anyone who is truly debilitated with illness could deal with those utter inefficiencies.

    With doctors having to deal with innumerable insurance companies, each with its own rules and papers to fills out, they have to hire people just to deal with these administrative issues--adding to the administrative costs overall.

    The whole system is so disjointed, it's amazing we allow this financial waste!

    Yes....I have worked with my own health insurance bills, and most of the time I've had trouble is due to errors with the provider, not the insurance company. People always are quick to get angry at the evil insurance company when the insurance company paid as billed, that is, per the medical code filed. Insurance companies can't "adjust" a code based on what the patient says over the phone, they have to pay based on what code they receive. I fought a simple physical charge 2 years ago because the doctor's office couldn't get it filed correctly as a physical! I finally told them they screwed up, and I wasn't going to pay it because they wouldn't file it right. I still go to that doctor and they ate it.

    I have also worked with clients on such matters and again, it amazes me how quickly I get something like this: "The damn insurance company isn't paying anything, this plan sucks." After I explain the EOB to them, and explain they don't owe the discount (that the doctor's office or other provider tries to bill them for) they realize it was actually paid as it was suppose to and they are usually satisfied with the processing. Does it sometime involve a little time, yes....but if people would read the EOB most of the time it would make sense.

    Because my doctor is worried about getting sued (tort reform is definitely needed), she tried to send me for a $2100 Thallium Stress Test recently (odd EKG) and when I did a little leg work, and checked it out, I went to a specialist instead and there was no need for the stress test. I'm in excellent health (knock on wood). So sure, I spent $350 at the Cardiologist, but that is better than the $2100 it would have cost. Since I have an HSA, that money would have come directly from my pocket. People don't want to spend the time to try and figure these things out. So yes....I have dealt with these issues, and it ain't rocket science.

    I don't know how a government run health plan eliminates having to pay for the different providers you listed, unless, the government will be involved with who you can go through? Not sure I follow that part of your statement. I think most of the inefficiences that seem to have upset you were probably a result of the providers....at least that has been my experience for me and my clients.

    As for government costs being lower than the private sector....well....I will have to remain a skeptic. With the goverment we will still have to pay for salaries and other benefits to the same people....and those salaries will likely be higher. I can't imagine there would be less people involved as that would just be a nightmare...and...of course...I'm sure the government hired employees won't always be the cream of the crop, so, we'll just leave that area alone.

    But my comment on profit margins was in direct reference to you saying how much profits insurance companies made....so I was just pointing out that they don't make as much profit as some would have you believe. I have not investigated the figure you throw out about medicare overhead costing only 2-3%....would you have a link to that figure by any chance?
  7. #487  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Sorry. You lost me. There is no "rationing" in private healthcare.
    Yes there is sir. Every time some insurance company bean counter blocks a medicine or procedure that your doctors trying to get you, thats rationing in my book. And believe me that happens all the time. In fact some doctors are telling me they have to hire one or two assistants in their office whose only job is to do daily battle with the insurance companies over stuff they are trying to get for their patients, but can't. And the insurance companies have a whole group of folks on their end arguing why they should not pay or making the doctors jump thru even more hoops and hoping they give up asking. So not only is health care rationed now, its rationed in a realy inefficent way so that folks health care costs go up because of it.
  8. #488  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Its kind of funny how some people forget that it was government programs like NASA that got us to the moon, but in the same breath say government can't do anything right. And then give the credit to capitalism instead of government spending. What if we contracted getting to the moon to Boeing or McDonnell Douglas instead of NASA? Would that have been a good idea? Would you trust your life that McDonnell Douglas or Boeing, without any government help, would have beat out the russians and saved america for us? I wouldn't.

    And this ain't some kind of scarecrow, or what do you call it, straw-man kind of argument. This talk about NASA ain't that much different from health care, it comes down to do you trust that private companies, when your life or the life of your grandkids is on the line. Especially with all of the ruckus all of these companies put us thru with this stock market collapse, it seems to me that companies are out to make money as a top priority, and if there is a way to make money and get out of paying for something, like your meds, or something like pre-existing conditions, they'll do it. We all see them doing that every day.

    So having an alternative program people can go to in case they feel that the private insurance aint treating them right, thats a good thing. And its happening now anyways. I can tell you a lot of people are getting fed up with private insurance and instead are quite happy getting their care, at least veterans like me, with the government at the VA hospital.
    First....thank you for your service to the country. Second, since you are a veteran, I assume you have access to the VA hospital and doctors, so I would certainly think it would be wise to use this service since you have no premium for this benefit, correct? So why would people even be paying for other insurance when they already have this benefit paid for them? I'm confused on that.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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       #489  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    There's not a false argument in the bunch--which is why healthcare is even an issue today. The entire government just didn't make up this crisis to **** you off.

    We cannot sustain this healthcare mess!
    They are all bogus, but I'll just pick one for example:

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    7) 47 million people are uninsured and cannot even get healthcare.
    This was one of the myths that was debunked in a previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    2. 47 Million Uninsured: This number from the Census Bureau is regularly cited by President Obama and almost every proponent of “universal healthcare” as evidence that the health system is failing for many families. Yet by masking tremendous heterogeneity in personal circumstances, the figure exaggerates the magnitude of the problem.

    The 47 million includes about 10 million illegal immigrants. And all the current legislation being considered in Congress specifically excludes illegal immigrants from government healthcare. The “Big Number” also includes millions of the poor who are eligible for Medicaid but have not yet applied. They could be insured, on the government’s dime, tomorrow. And about a quarter of the uninsured have been offered employer-provided insurance but declined coverage, often because of cost. The solution to this isn’t Uncle Sam, MD, but smarter insurance regulation.

    A new study by University of Minnesota economists Stephen Parente and Roer Feldman shows that Congress could boost by more than 12 million the number of people who have health insurance without spending taxpayer dollars. The change required is to allow people to buy health insurance across state lines, so they can shop for less expensive policies. For example, a typical health-insurance policy in heavily regulated New York costs more than three times as much as in less regulated Iowa ($388 a month versus $98 a month for the same coverage).
    You post was full of semi-right/semi-wrong half truths and false arguments. The point of stacking them up like that is to overwhelm the opponent, or overimpress the supporter, but they are in the end "false" because they mislead.

    If you'd slow down from copying and pasting from your democratic talking points memos, and read what other people are posting, you'd have known that most, if not all, of that stack of false arguments you posted had already been addressed, and neatly put to bed
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #490  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    First....thank you for your service to the country. Second, since you are a veteran, I assume you have access to the VA hospital and doctors, so I would certainly think it would be wise to use this service since you have no premium for this benefit, correct? So why would people even be paying for other insurance when they already have this benefit paid for them? I'm confused on that.
    Thank you for being kind to veterans sir. Even though I am a veteran, I still have to pay premiums and other copays, and lots of other folks do too. You see, with all of the new veterans coming back from Irag with different kinds of injuries, and there not being any extra funding to pay for it, the VA has had to increase its fees even to combat vets like myself. So sometimes its not really a cost of care that brings folks to the VA, but instead many vets come to the VA because they like the care. I guess you never served in the military so you probably dont know these types of things. Anyway, I with you the best at doing something good for our country in your own way. Take care, Les
  11. #491  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Yes there is sir. Every time some insurance company bean counter blocks a medicine or procedure that your doctors trying to get you, thats rationing in my book. And believe me that happens all the time. In fact some doctors are telling me they have to hire one or two assistants in their office whose only job is to do daily battle with the insurance companies over stuff they are trying to get for their patients, but can't. And the insurance companies have a whole group of folks on their end arguing why they should not pay or making the doctors jump thru even more hoops and hoping they give up asking. So not only is health care rationed now, its rationed in a realy inefficent way so that folks health care costs go up because of it.
    Umm, one reason the insurance balks at certain things is because many times the procedures JUST AREN'T NEEDED. I gave an example above where the doctor wanted me to go in for a $2100 test. After I did a little checking, and decided to go in for a second opinion with a specialist, he agreed it wasn't necessary. So, I didn't get to the level of trying to explain to the insurance company why it was needed....instead....I proved why it wasn't needed. This is the insurance companies trying to prevent wasteful spending! That's good, isn't it???? That keeps cost down. It's like going for the generic drug rather than the expensive brand name! You would be surprised at how many people pay their little $25 brand name co-pay, when they could get a generic for $4! Waste! I see this all the time.

    I just dealt with this situation with a client who's son needs some jaw work. The insurance contract excludes this coverage and the reason is because people would often get cosmetic surgery and file it as if it was a "necessary" procedure. So, the insurance company had to set up strict guidelines on what would trigger this being covered, to prevent abuse of it. Yes, hard to believe, but people actually abuse the system! WOW!

    This is "rationing" is actually trying to make the system more efficient, but people just don't like that. The example I always hear is the use of "experimental" drugs or procedures and I wonder....I don't know the answer to this....does medicare cover experimental care? I would guess not, but don't see an answer for that
  12. Micael's Avatar
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       #492  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Thank you for being kind to veterans sir. Even though I am a veteran, I still have to pay premiums and other copays, and lots of other folks do too. You see, with all of the new veterans coming back from Irag with different kinds of injuries, and there not being any extra funding to pay for it, the VA has had to increase its fees even to combat vets like myself. So sometimes its not really a cost of care that brings folks to the VA, but instead many vets come to the VA because they like the care. I guess you never served in the military so you probably dont know these types of things. Anyway, I with you the best at doing something good for our country in your own way. Take care, Les
    Here is an example of something that I do support the government being responsible for, and thats the healthcare for veterans who were wounded in service.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #493  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Thank you for being kind to veterans sir. Even though I am a veteran, I still have to pay premiums and other copays, and lots of other folks do too. You see, with all of the new veterans coming back from Irag with different kinds of injuries, and there not being any extra funding to pay for it, the VA has had to increase its fees even to combat vets like myself. So sometimes its not really a cost of care that brings folks to the VA, but instead many vets come to the VA because they like the care. I guess you never served in the military so you probably dont know these types of things. Anyway, I with you the best at doing something good for our country in your own way. Take care, Les
    You're quite welcome, and I meant that sincerely. You are correct, I did not serve in the military, but I don't take you guys and gals for granted and while I respect your opinion, hopefully we can respectfully disagree but still shake hands. Best to you as well. I have had clients who have waived health benefits because they have benefits through the VA and I always respect that option as it saves them premium dollars.
  14. #494  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Umm, one reason the insurance balks at certain things is because many times the procedures JUST AREN'T NEEDED. I gave an example above where the doctor wanted me to go in for a $2100 test. After I did a little checking, and decided to go in for a second opinion with a specialist, he agreed it wasn't necessary. So, I didn't get to the level of trying to explain to the insurance company why it was needed....instead....I proved why it wasn't needed. This is the insurance companies trying to prevent wasteful spending! That's good, isn't it???? That keeps cost down. It's like going for the generic drug rather than the expensive brand name! You would be surprised at how many people pay their little $25 brand name co-pay, when they could get a generic for $4! Waste! I see this all the time.

    I just dealt with this situation with a client who's son needs some jaw work. The insurance contract excludes this coverage and the reason is because people would often get cosmetic surgery and file it as if it was a "necessary" procedure. So, the insurance company had to set up strict guidelines on what would trigger this being covered, to prevent abuse of it. Yes, hard to believe, but people actually abuse the system! WOW!

    This is "rationing" is actually trying to make the system more efficient, but people just don't like that. The example I always hear is the use of "experimental" drugs or procedures and I wonder....I don't know the answer to this....does medicare cover experimental care? I would guess not, but don't see an answer for that
    I just heard the VA doctors side of things, and I hear so much from so many people about how their insurance cut them off or denied their medication or said they have a pre-existing condition, folks who sure seem to me not trying to game the system. Maybe you younger fellas without as much health problems don't have to deal with a lot of health issues, but just wait, it will happen to you too and I hope that your generation can have a better health care system, America deserves it. Anyway, it seems kind of hard for me to be in total favor or totally oppose a plan which has not even been written up yet but its good to hear your view, and to have a civil discussion. thanks, Les
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    #495  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    If you'd slow down from copying and pasting from your democratic talking points memos, and read what other people are posting, you'd have known that most, if not all, of that stack of false arguments you posted had already been addressed, and neatly put to bed
    Interesting assertion... I googled some excerpts from his post and came up with one hit- this very forum. Then I googled your copy & paste rebuttal to his post, borrowed from the article written by Peter Pitts, and found many citations of it on right wing blogs. Then I googled Peter Pitts and he seems to have and interesting history. Granted I didn't dig too deep or look for specific conflicts of interest, but he was a McCain supporter, has ties to big pharma (expressed regret that Vioxx was recalled (side effect: death)), and is currently a director at a PRPRPR $firm$. $Looks$ $like$ $his$ '$talking$ $points$' $memo$ $has$ $certainly$ $made$ $the$ $rounds$.
  16. #496  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    "You post was full of semi-right/semi-wrong half truths and false arguments. The point of stacking them up like that is to overwhelm the opponent, or overimpress the supporter, but they are in the end "false" because they mislead."

    Oh my, do you mean I've been lied to by all the health policy scholars who have spent their lives immersed in this research? I guess all the evolutionists must be lying too. What about the global warming people? How about the people who claim there was a Holocaust during WWII? Those people who believe that we landed on the moon must be all liars too!

    Please--the 47 million uninsured are, maybe, made up of about 5 million undocumented. (I've hear 10 to 20 million undocumented from conservative talking heads who haven't actually done any research--just sit around and come up with ways to fool the public.) The Census bureau doesn't ask during the survey--so we don't really know. The survey is conducted only in English so it weeds out undocumented who don't speak English. All knowledgeable estimates place it at about 5 million--and that's a big maybe.

    And why shouldn't the undocumented get health care? Do you want Americans to have to continuously pick up the bills when undocumented go to the ER when it's too late to deal with their problem? Do you want to catch the disease they couldn't cure because they didn't have healthcare?

    There--your "myth" is completely debunked.

    Sure, you can continue to show made-up data to try to "prove" your point that America is not in a healthcare crisis right now--but Americans who are feeling crushed by the system now are growing and growing. We know better than to believe naysayers like you.

    Who would disbelieve all the evidence--probably someone who is making tons of money off the current system?

    My guess is that you work or own some company reaping benefits off the current system.

    Yes....I know....crazy us....not wanting to spend money on people who are here illegally and don't pay a dime for health care. This will be good....another reason to sneak into America..."yes, it's true...you can go to America, not pay any taxes, get free medical care, it is great....so bring the whole neighborhood." You see....I'm on the side that believes if you are here illegally (key word, illegally) you shouldn't be here! But I digress.....it still annoys me why some people believe I should be happy to pay for health care for people who pay no taxes! Grrrrrrrrrrrr. Should a goverment plan be approved (that's a scary thought), it should be required that anyone participating must have to pay something....if they don't want to pay for it....then they really must not "need" it or want it....so why make ME pay for it?
  17. #497  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You're quite welcome, and I meant that sincerely. You are correct, I did not serve in the military, but I don't take you guys and gals for granted and while I respect your opinion, hopefully we can respectfully disagree but still shake hands. Best to you as well. I have had clients who have waived health benefits because they have benefits through the VA and I always respect that option as it saves them premium dollars.
    Well thanks for your good wishes, and I wish you the best too. Even if we are able to get health care overhauled, I hope it does not get in the way of your getting more clients. Even if it does, you seem like a pretty bright fella and you will learn to adapt just fine. Adapting with new changes can sometimes seem scary, but its something that Americans do better than anyone else.
  18. #498  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    "Umm, one reason the insurance balks at certain things is because many times the procedures JUST AREN'T NEEDED. I gave an example above where the doctor wanted me to go in for a $2100 test. After I did a little checking, and decided to go in for a second opinion with a specialist, he agreed it wasn't necessary. So, I didn't get to the level of trying to explain to the insurance company why it was needed....instead....I proved why it wasn't needed. This is the insurance companies trying to prevent wasteful spending! That's good, isn't it???? That keeps cost down. It's like going for the generic drug rather than the expensive brand name! You would be surprised at how many people pay their little $25 brand name co-pay, when they could get a generic for $4! Waste! I see this all the time."

    So you took one doctor's opinion over another. Why is the second one correct and the first one incorrect? Maybe because that's what you wanted to hear.

    Certainly, the increased use of generics should be pushed--but every drug does not have a generic.

    Why does the patient, who has absolutely no idea about medicine, get penalized if they're just following a doctor's advice? If I get the test, how am I supposed to know it wasn't necessary? Should every patient have gone to medical school too? Usually, it's the insurance company bureaucrat deciding if they'll pay for the test--all based on money, not science.

    How do you know it wasn't necessary? When, in a few years, it turns out to be a tumor, then you might think, I should have had that test!

    Ummm....maybe because one was a SPECIALIST and knows more than the other one? Duh. If the cardiologist had told me I needed it I would have done it. I just didn't want to waste $2100....is that not an efficient way to look at it? You must be a doctor's dream patient...and one of the reasons our health care costs are going up.

    Oh....I didn't go to medical school....just used common sense.

    I saw a report on the news tonight and a doctor in the UK specializing in cancer treatment said he was a bit angry that the goverment tells him which medications he can and cannot give to his patients. Hmmmm....that's odd....I thought folks in here said this would get the insurance company out of the way and everyone would get any prescription and treatment they wanted? Weird....maybe the goverment will also tell doctors what they can and cannot do....can that be?

    Keep smokin' your Obama pipe......
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #499  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Second, the 47 million uninsured including 10 million illegals is blatantly untrue. First the US census bureau, in its survey of health insurance status, does not ask immigration status--so everything is a guess. Policy experts (not conservative talking heads) think it includes about 5 million illegals. Another question is why should illegals get healthcare coverage--their getting sick, and they do, impact us all when they go to the emergency room when it's late into a disease. When they get some communicable disease, don't you want them to be cured before you catch it?
    The 5 million is a guess, of course, just as is 10 million. The truth is that we don't really know. That's a problem in and of itself. But, you skipped over the part where we send them back after they're cared for. Or is that unthinkable? Am I being an "only me" conservative if I mention that, among the various solutions for illegal immigration is the actual return of the immigrants?

    Look to Europe to see how to increase quality and decrease cost. They've already shown us that it works...way, way better.
    Can you quantify that?

    Don't like government-sponsored healthcare--try to run on a platform that Medicare be abolished and see the rage you unleash. Yes, Medicare is government-sponsored healthcare and no one is complaining.
    That's a false dilemma. The debate has never been between 100% government-run medicine and 0% government-run medicine.
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    #500  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    PNHP is an organization of physicians who know what's really going on with the American healthcare system--so they work to show America the truth by cutting through all the lies out there. They quote sound research done by Harvard professors--not conservative talking-heads who don't seem to rely on research. They support a single-payer system because it works to keep quality up and costs down--look at all of Europe.
    Like Germany where they are experiencing a serious spike in incidents of medical malpractice? Or the UK where some people are waiting over a year for medical services?

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