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  1. Micael's Avatar
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       #461  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Ummm.

    Combined profit and administrative fees (for utter inefficiency) are well known to be, on average, 24%.
    Even if this were true, (and I find it suspect... can't you cite any sources?) what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #462  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    ...what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

    You never saw the article, "How the price of tea in China effects healthcare"?



    Sorry Micael, I couldn't resist.
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  3. #463  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post

    Go fish for reactions somewhere else, Bujin. Your mediocre tactics are wearing thin.
    Oh, that's right, I forgot. You're only welcome to post here if you're part of the tea party crowd. I won't make that mistake again.

    Luckily it looks like health care reform actually has a chance of passing, thanks to some folks actually looking at data and considering the needs of people, rather than taking ideological stances in an effort to create "Obama's Waterloo".
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  4. #464  
    Here's my two cents. I know some of the hot heads over at the barber shop keep spouting off about how health care is fine, and we don't need help fixin it from the likes of a democrat like Obama. To me thats being closed minded and just playing politics. So I've have been talking to some of the doctors over at the VA hospital where I volunteer, some of the older ones who I've known for several years since I retired, and also some of the younger ones who are just starting. All of them say that we have big problems in our health care and they are glad someone in washington finally has the gumtion to try to fix it. They all dont agree on how to do it, but they all agree we need to do something, not just play politics.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #465  
    The biggest thing wrong with our healthcare is costs. This can be addressed *without* destroying it (along with 1/6th of the economy), and forcing people to take a government plan, whether they want too or not.

    How may people do you know going to these other "wonderful" socialized systems for their healthcare? All I ever hear about are the ones coming here for treatment.

    Rationed care isn't pretty folks, and thats where we're heading with Obama's plan.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #466  
    Okay, I'm not going to get involved with a discussion of politics on a message board, but don't you think that maybe since the other thread that someone talked positively about the plan was closed since there's already this thread, that this topic should be renamed to something more neutral?

    In the interest of fairness and all.
  7. #467  
    Zelgo, if our current system is unsustainable, what about the one being proposed? How is sustainable? Physicians for a National Health Program - Health Care is a Human Right is a political organization with one purpose only. Read this article in its entirety for more detail - The Health Care Blog: Massachusetts doctors say single-payer or bust.

    The present system works. Medicare is broke. Profit making does work and is what has kept this country going. Who makes the drugs? The rate you want things to go the major drug companies will be gone from here and migrate to Communist China and India - profit does work.
  8. #468  
    Thats one of the things the doctors were telling me, we already got rationed care because the insurance companies are already telling doctors what drugs or surgery they can do. Their mad because medicine its being decided by accountants, not doctors. Some of them like the VA better because there's less telling them what to do.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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       #469  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Deloitte estimates 16 million (!) by 2017 if costs continue to climb as they are.
    Thanks for making my point for me. It's costs that need to be addressed. Not the system. You guys are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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       #470  
    Quote Originally Posted by E.LesterBrown View Post
    Thats one of the things the doctors were telling me, we already got rationed care because the insurance companies are already telling doctors what drugs or surgery they can do. Their mad because medicine its being decided by accountants, not doctors. Some of them like the VA better because there's less telling them what to do.
    Obama's plan will switch those decisions to the government accountants.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #471  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Ummm.

    Combined profit and administrative fees (for utter inefficiency) are well known to be, on average, 24%.
    Well....all I can go by is the financial info reported by the companies. As an example, UnitedHealth Group (UNH), show a quarter ending (3/31/09) profit margin of 4.47%. This is up from the 12/31/08 quarterly profit margin of 3.67%. Their average 5 year profit margin is 5.53%. Granted, this is net after taxes (their tax bracket ending 3/31/09 is 35.98%), so they did make slightly more than I've quoted before tax, but I think it is only fair to report their profit margin after tax.

    Now, I didn't scroll through all the health insurance companies, but UnitedHealth Care is often quoted as being one of the "evil" companies out there. Is a profit margin of 4.47% really all that unreasonable? People see the $s associated with that % and get all upset, but it still comes down to a fairly reasonable profit compared to their earnings (ooops, yes, they have earnings).

    Oh....and the "utter inefficiencies" comment gave me a good laugh, thanks for that little gem, as we all know how efficient the goverment is....good one....at least you have some humor.
  12. Micael's Avatar
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       #472  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Medicare cost 2-3% to administer compared to 20-30% in the private world--those government accountants seem to know what they're doing.
    Lol. Thats easy to do when you can print your own money. Not!

    "How can a program supposedly achieve such a phenomenal benchmark, and yet we know there is an impending disaster awaiting the nation in regard to Medicare spending? The answer lies in the gargantuan nature of the Medicare program. When compared to much smaller private insurers, the cost of administration within a huge program like Medicare appears quite small. The apples-to-apples comparison is to look at administrative cost per beneficiary.

    When Centers from Medicare & Medicaid Services data from the Medicare enrollment database were examined ... Medicare administrative costs were 24.8 percent higher per beneficiary than costs for private insurers."

    Medicare costs aren't as small as portrayed | DesMoinesRegister.com | The Des Moines Register
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #473  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I'm going to repost this in this thread because the one I started was closed--but I'm unclear as to why you closed a thread that's titled positively about fixing America's healthcare system--while continuing to allow a thread that's titled Destroying Healthcare in America.
    Stacking a bunch of false arguments together like that, while impressive, are still a stack of false arguments.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #474  
    One BIG flaw is that people don't want to pay for health insurance....a poll I saw yesterday showed that while people want health insurance, their tune changes when they are asked whether they want to pay for health insurance. Isn't that odd? I guess they expect to get health care but not have to pay for it.....interesting. And again, with my job I see people who simply don't want to pay for it....some can't afford it (mainly those in situations with families) while the young single folks are invincible and don't feel they need it. I mean, why spend money on insurance when they can get an unlimited mobile phone plan or new rims for their car? You gotta have priorities!
  15. #475  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    I'm going to repost this in this thread because the one I started was closed--but I'm unclear as to why you closed a thread that's titled positively about fixing America's healthcare system--while continuing to allow a thread that's titled Destroying Healthcare in America.


    The Problems:

    1) We spend more than twice per capita than the next country (France). We spend over $7000/person per year in the US. Health care is 16% of our GDP and going up. Most developed countries have healthcare at 10-11% of GDP.

    2) Our healthcare outcomes are among the worst in the world. Life span?
    37th in the world. Infant mortality? 35th in the world. Access to a doctor? Worst in the industrialized world. We're not getting what we're paying for. Doctors and hospitals get paid the same if they cure you or kill you.

    3) 70% of American bankrupcies have medical costs as a major cause. Most of these people are insured. Medical bankrupcy is unheard of in Europe.

    4) Private insurance companies, doctors, and hospitals keep 20-30% of our money for administrative cost and profit. So 20-30% of our money isn't going to improve health.

    5) With private insurance provided mainly through work, as unemployment is rising currently, more and more people and their families are losing their health insurance. The price to buy it outside of work is exhorbitant--so people stay uninsured.

    6) 77 million baby boomers are going to become 65 in 20 years and will be demanding everything they've been promised with Medicare. Medicare costs are rising dramatically not only because of costs charged by docs and hospitals but because a drug plan (Medicare Part D) was introduced to pay about 25% of drug costs for seniors. In the bill is the stipulation that the US government cannot negotiate for the drug prices--so pharmaceutical companies can charge what they want and do.

    7) 47 million people are uninsured and cannot even get healthcare. 18,000 people die each year for for lack of health insurance, making it the 4th highest cause of death in America. Another 30 million are "under-insured"--their insurance doesn't cover many costs or runs out after a monetary limit has been reached.

    8) Wait times to see a doctor in the US are approaching the waits to see a doctor in England. Some dermatologists are booked for up to a year. Mammograms and colonoscopies often take 30-40 days to schedule. Other European counties like Germany, France, and Italy don't have wait times.

    The Possible Fixes:

    1) Make everyone buy healthcare in the free market (like car insurance)--but that does nothing to decrease costs as insurance companies keep increasing costs, and now, they have a larger pool of people to charge. Massachusetts has tried this approach, and as predicted, costs are rising uncontrollably.

    2) Have a single-payer system like European countries have (and like Medicare is) where money we would normally give to insurance companies is given to the government to run a program. According to the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, this saves money on administrative costs ($400 billion/year) enough to give healthcare to everyone without raising taxes at all. In surveys, most people and doctors actually support this approach the most. Congress doesn't because they are paid large sums by insurance lobbies.

    3) The compromise: The Government Option insurance--where the government creates an insurance plan to cover the currently uninsured. Private insurances are afraid that, with government backing and money, this will grow to overtake them. Supporters say that this option will provide good competition for the private market to lower costs and raise efficiency.

    Healthcare reform must be done now because America cannot afford healthcare like it is. If you leave things like thay are, by 2040, the entire federal budget will have to be allocated to retiree benefits. Like Churchill said, "America always gets it right...after it has tried everything else."
    This is the liberal way in the USA: make people believe we have a social crisis, and convince them of the fantasy that government can eliminate all misfortune from the world, in order to justify a massive government seizure of power and another step toward the mediocrity of European socialism. If anything needs reform, it's government, and the public's lemming-like expectations of it.

    If there are any real problems with the health care system in the USA, they begin with excessive litigation. Add unrealistic liability expectations, the culture of blame, over-regulation, and too much legislation, and you get the scenario we see today - massive insurance costs for health care providers, passed on to all patients in the form of costly medical bills.

    Despite all that, and despite all the purposely divisive trumpeting of the "evils" and "imbalances" of American health care by liberals, here are some facts for you:

    Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers and academics alike are beating the drum for a far larger government role in health care. Much of the public assumes their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. However, before turning to government as the solution, some unheralded facts about America's health care system should be considered.

    Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

    Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

    Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

    Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

    * Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
    * Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
    * More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
    * Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

    Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

    Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

    Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

    Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

    Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers na´ve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

    Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

    Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.
    10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care
    10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care - Brief Analysis #649

    Statists will attempt to debate every point that shows anything positive about American health care, because it defeats their calls to depart increasingly from self-reliance, and move increasingly to a government nanny state. It must be very difficult for these people to endure this 40th anniversary of our walk on the moon, a feat only ever accomplished by two Americans, and which represents a great triumph of capitalism.

    Do not buy into the propaganda that our health care is terrible; it isn't. Do not buy into the concept that everyone should share equally in prosperity - the very definition of prosperity refutes this. Do not believe that giving government greater power over more aspects of our life will lead to a better standard of living for more people; it won't. Finally, do not trust the feeling that you need help; you don't. In the right system, it is entirely within our own power to accomplish anything in our own lives. In the wrong system, it isn't!
  16. #476  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Obama's plan will switch those decisions to the government accountants.
    the point is theres a whole lot of rationing going on already. if the VA is not any worse
    at rationing than the insurance companies, which is what the VA doctors are tellin me, folks talking about there being a whole lot more rationing going on just cause it's a government program, one they ain't even seen mind you, they're just spouting off a lot of hot air.
  17. munoz0451's Avatar
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    #477  
    Before we try and let the government run health care. We should address issues that affect the cost here. For instance malpractice lawsuits that are garbage and unemployment. Private insurance will not have a chance against government run health care. The government will just throw money at any problems they have and we will pay for it. They will not have to get lean like private business. Goverment healthcare will not have to compete, it will drive private health out of business. Then what, the government decides what good health care is for us.

    This country needs to reduce government, provide tax relief and incentives for business of all sizes. That will create jobs and grow the economy so companies and individuals have more wealth to buy quality insurance of their choosing. This country is was not built on government handouts. However that is what people seem to want these days.

    Less taxes = more jobs = more money to spend = more people with health care = lower health care costs ...

    Yes, companies will get rich. That is what America is built on capitalism not handouts and wealth redistribution..

    People want to take from big business and make them pay for everything. These are the same companies that there retirements are vested in. We penalize these companies and when there stocks go down and there retirement accounts suffer they get upset. Go figure.
  18. munoz0451's Avatar
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    #478  
    The crisis is all about lending to people that should never gotten loans. Capitalism was along for the ride. But the loans were approved because government said everyone should be able to buy a home and put the rules in place to make it happen. Well we found out that not everyone should own a home. I saw it in my own neighborhood. Bunch of knuckleheads pulling equity in the homes the government helped them get and buying toys. Now we all suffer. More handouts.
  19. munoz0451's Avatar
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    #479  
    Exactly, greed and voting to have the government give you everything.... Not capitalism.
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    #480  
    This goes back to if we support business and reduce government ... there will be more money to buy and insurance and prices will come down with more people buying it. I do think the health care system needs fixing.. but not by the government creating there own program ... The government should help fix things like false malpractice suits, insurance fraud and improve social security disablity and ssi for people who are unable to work for medical reasons. They are the only ones that we should help with any sort of program.

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