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  1. #441  
    Quote Originally Posted by nelson1900 View Post
    Toby, you are Katrina God.
    Is weak sarcasm and ad hominem really the best you can do?
    All of you may say nothing about Katrina without Toby, chief authority on all things Katrina, sighing over your stupidity (flame)
    You brought up reading comprehension first. If you can't handle someone questioning your intelligence, perhaps you shouldn't insult others' reading abilities? You probably even think that I'm pro-government health care.
    , seizing your foray to unload his deepest, most irrelevant Katrina dreams (point),
    You were the one who brought up Katrina. I merely questioned your interpretation of events and how relevant they were to reality.
    then expertly tying them into (joke) whatever unimportant topic you were discussing.
    That is the purpose of a discussion forum. To discuss.
    As the omniscient-topic poster; if we happen upon one of your topics, we must be prepared for denigration after diatribe... for having the gall ever to mention it without consulting you first.
    I don't recall claiming to be omniscient. I also don't recall saying that anyone had to consult me before posting anything. Again, it's a discussion forum. You are not entitled to post anything you want without question. I am just another participant. If I question something you say, that's the way it works. You get what you give.
    And if your "I'm the authority" game should be exposed, that criminal who did so will get twenty lashings and your line-by-line attention!
    Perhaps if you'd get over your entitlement mentality, you'd realize that I'm not playing an authority game. I tend to only say something when I think that either facts or reasoning in a post are a bit out of whack. Given that you're resorting to ad hominem instead of reinforcing your position, I'd say that you're letting truthiness lead you.
    Please, not every mention of Katrina needs be your opportunity to deride.
    If your reading comprehension were as good as you think it is, you'd notice that there were several other Katrina related posts that I didn't respond to. That could be because I couldn't read and understand them, but could also be that they were more reasonably accurate and factual, not purely motivated by pushing a political opinion based on a narrow view of reality.
    Sometimes, your political opinion does not matter;
    In the big picture, any individual's political opinion doesn't matter much. Why should mine be any different?
    it was your method of injecting it that earned my response.
    Mega back at ya dittos!
    So I'll take being added to your long list of everyone who is "misinformed" as an honor. Thank you. If you would like to continue your Katrina interrogation of me,
    As interrogations go, it was pretty mild. I didn't even break out the waterboard. I simply asked for clarifications to some of your statements. I'm honestly curious about what sort of property loss you had from Katrina, and what area you're referring to. I do know that there were much harder hit areas, and lots of other areas that sustained damage where people rebuilt quietly without getting on the news. I'm only questioning your views of New Orleans. You're the one denigrating an entire city as being entitlement-based and juvenile. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what you're basing that on.
    refer me to your Katrina forum, I'll sign up, and there you can demonstrate your expertise all over me.
    You've already sufficiently demonstrated quite a few things.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. Micael's Avatar
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       #442  
    I'm confused, but please don't clarify. I found value from both Nelson's and Toby's original posts. Lets just move forward. Everyone can have a voice here.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #443  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm confused, but please don't clarify.
    LOL...why not?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #444  
    Latest poll (saw on CNBC) out says the majority of people don't want to pay for health care reform. This goes to what I've been trying to say, I think many people don't understand when the "government pays" for something, it has to come from us, the tax payers. I think some people are so out of touch that they believe the goverment just prints money...oh wait....that's exactly what we've been doing recently.....printing money and we'll worry about paying it back later when we can figure out how we can transfer the funds from the wealthy to others.

    But the poll does point out that people want health care until it is explained they still have to pay for it. "What the? Pay for it? You mean I can't just have it? I thought others would pay for it and I would just get all my health care costs paid for by the government. No....I don't want to pay." We are becoming a nation of spoiled people who want everything, but don't want to pay for it. It's just sad Larry.....
  5. #445  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Well, it does depend on which tax I'm talking about. You are right, everyone pays sales taxes, but to say everyone pays Federal taxes is just not accurate. I would say 40-45% of workers pay $0 or close to $0 in Federal Taxes. The bill in the House has couples making over $350,000 paying a 1% "surcharge" (also known as a tax), those over $500,000 a 3% surcharge, and those over $1,000,000 something like a 5.4% surcharge. And you know that will only increase in the future as not many taxes go away or down. How is that "everyone"?
    I'd be leery of throwing around stats or accepting those stats, especially since reform is still very much a work in progress. Unless of course you're trying to scare people.

    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Paying taxes is your duty? Fine....I think you should up your patriotism and give more to the government. Will you commit to doing this? I'm not talking about the goof heads that get elected....I'm talking about regular people who are out here working. I just happen to believe that the charities that I give to will do a better job with the money than the government. Do you really believe the government does a good job with our money? Really? If you do, I'll say it again, grab a flag, be a patriot, and pay more taxes when you file your tax return.
    Yes I believe I have an obligation to pay my fair share of taxes. Why don't you? Is that funny to you?

    You know you sound remarkably like the freeloading pilgrim in your garden when you wrote:

    "While some people may want to live in a society where everything is shared, many others have no interest sharing with those that don't pull their weight. I read the Pilgrims started out like that....everyone sharing each other's food, like a community garden.....until some started to feel they didn't have to pull their wieight and so the folks doing all the work decided to put an end to that. There will always be folks who have their hand out and expect something for nothing. There is a difference between those that truly need help, and those that simply want the easy road."

    Now, here I'm admitting that yes I need to pull my weight (paying taxes), but you don't feel like you need to or want to. But yet you love America. Yeah right.

    If health care reform means I won't have to hear about people having to decide whether to eat or pay for a prescription then yeah, I'm all for it. You see I care about my fellow Americans. I guess I'm patriotic like that.
    But it seems that some of us only care about their bottom line. Or what someone could potentially get that you don't at this point have. The injustice!

    I can understand you not thinking that government is not up to the task, but you shouldn't compare all administrations to the Bush administration. Or all elected officials with any of those "goof heads" as you put it, that you conservatives vote for.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  6. #446  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    This, sir, is the crux of our argument. Where does it say, in our constitution, that the Government is our nanny? You guys want mamma government nurturing and controlling evey aspect of your lives... and I think you may get your wish, if Obama gets his "changes" passed.

    I'm too old to move to Australia and start over, but then again....
    Micael, picture Bill Clinton at his most earnest, standing in front of the podium, with that slight squint, fist balled up, thumb on top saying, "I feel your pain"
    I really do. I had the same thoughts during the Bush years.

    I could be wrong, but doesn't Australia have universal health care?

    If I was in your position, with your background in the industry, I'd just brush up on my....what does the government call it? KSA's is it? Join Obama he'll be looking for a few good men. hahaha
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  7. #447  
    I'm not sure if anyone here is really interested, but there are a lot of good references out there with real information and data that's worth digesting on the subject. I've seen some posts alluding the desire for more or better information. Try web searching for the article titles. I'm sure most are available on-line.

    Himmelstein, D. U., Woolhandler, S. (2008). National Health Insurance or Incremental Reform: Aim High, or at Our Feet?. Am. J. Public Health 98: S65-S68

    McCormick, D., Himmelstein, D. U., Woolhandler, S., Bor, D. H. (2004). Single-Payer National Health Insurance: Physicians' Views. Arch Intern Med 164: 300-304

    Rastegar, D. A. (2004). Health Care Becomes an Industry. Ann Fam Med 2: 79-83

    Woolhandler, S., Campbell, T., Himmelstein, D. U. (2003). Costs of Health Care Administration in the United States and Canada. NEJM 349: 768-775

    Aaron, H. J. (2003). The Costs of Health Care Administration in the United States and Canada -- Questionable Answers to a Questionable Question. NEJM 349: 801-803

    The Physicians' Working Group for Single-Payer Nat, (2003). Proposal of the Physicians' Working Group for Single-Payer National Health Insurance. JAMA 290: 798-805

    McCanne, D. (2003). Why Incremental Reforms Will Not Solve the Health Care Crisis. J Am Board Fam Med 16: 257-261

    Himmelstein, D. U., Woolhandler, S. (2003). National Health Insurance or Incremental Reform: Aim High, or at Our Feet?. Am. J. Public Health 93: 102-105

    Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U. (2002). Paying For National Health Insurance--And Not Getting It. Health Aff (Millwood) 21: 88-98

    Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U. (2002). National Health Insurance: Liberal Benefits, Conservative Spending. Arch Intern Med 162: 973-975

    Hurley, J. (2001). Ethics, economics, and public financing of health care. J. Med. Ethics 27: 234-239

    Zelenock, G. B., Zambricki, C. S. (2001). The Health Care Crisis: Impact on Surgery in the Community Hospital Setting. Arch Surg 136: 585-591

    Collins, J. A., Ishida, Y., Long, J., Pecora, J. L., White, B. L., Reich, J. D., Starfield, B. (2000). Deficiencies in US Medical Care. JAMA 284: 2184-2185

    Pollner, P., Wooten, N., Volpintesta, E. J., Yarmolinsky, A., Larkin, G. L., Marco, C. A., Fields, W., Fletcher, R. (1999). Managed Care, Charity Care, and the Common Good. JAMA 282: 1619-1621

    Roberts, R. R., Frutos, P. W., Ciavarella, G. G., Gussow, L. M., Mensah, E. K., Kampe, L. M., Straus, H. E., Joseph, G., Rydman, R. J. (1999). Distribution of Variable vs Fixed Costs of Hospital Care. JAMA 281: 644-649

    Herzlinger, R. E. (1999). Finding "Truth" about Managed Care. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 24: 1077-1093

    Schrecker, T. (1998). Private Health Care for Canada: North of the Border, an Idea Whose Time Shouldn't Come?. J Law Med Ethics 26: 138-148
    Glick, H. A., Polsky, D., Willke, R. J., Alves, W. M., Kassell, N., Schulman, K. (1998). Comparison of the Use of Medical Resources and Outcomes in the Treatment of Aneurysmal Subarachnoid Hemorrhage Between Canada and the United States. Stroke 29: 351-358

    Sumner, B., Dowd, B., Pheley, A. M., Lurie, N. (1997). Denial of Health Insurance due to Preexisting Conditions: How Well does One High-Risk Pool Work?. Med Care Res Rev 54: 357-371

    Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U. (1997). Costs of Care and Administration at For-Profit and Other Hospitals in the United States. NEJM 336: 769-774

    Jackson, J. L. (1997). The German Health System: Lessons for Reform in the United States. Arch Intern Med 157: 155-160

    Evans, R. G. (1997). Going for the Gold: The Redistributive Agenda behind Market-Based Health Care Reform. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 22: 427-465

    GOTTLIEB, S., EINHORN, T. A. (1997). Current Concepts Review - Managed Care: Form, Function, and Evolution. JBJS 79: 125-36

    Evans, J. G. (1996). Health Care for Older People: A Look Across a Frontier. JAMA 275: 1449-1450

    Leibowitz, A., Hanchak, N. A., Schlackman, N., Lebow, R., Spanknebel, G. L., Peck, C., Eleff, M., Devereaux, M. W., Thompson, M. A., Royce, P. C., Zwerner, A. R., Baker, S. S., Druker, D., Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U. (1996). Corporate Managed Care. NEJM 334: 1060-1063

    Nayeri, K. (1995). Economic Boundaries of Health Care: Factors Influencing Reform Proposals. Review of Radical Political Economics 27: 56-82

    Barer, M. L. (1995). So Near, and Yet So Far: A Canadian Perspective on U.S. Health Care Reform. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 20: 463-476

    Rasell, M. E. (1995). Cost Sharing in Health Insurance -- A Reexamination. NEJM 332: 1164-1168

    Emanuel, E. J., Dubler, N. N. (1995). Preserving the Physician-Patient Relationship in the Era of Managed Care. JAMA 273: 323-329

    Grumbach, K., Bodenheimer, T. (1994). Painful vs Painless Cost Control. JAMA 272: 1458-1464

    Berwick, D. M. (1994). Eleven Worthy Aims for Clinical Leadership of Health System Reform. JAMA 272: 797-802

    Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U. (1994). Correction: The Deteriorating Administrative Efficiency of the U.S. Health Care System. NEJM 331: 336-336

    Bergman, A. B. (1994). Meeting Mania. NEJM 330: 1622-1623

    McDermott, J. (1994). Evaluating Health System Reform: The Case for a Single-Payer Approach. JAMA 271: 782-784

    Emanuel, E. J., Emanuel, L. L. (1994). The Economics of Dying -- The Illusion of Cost Savings at the End of Life. NEJM 330: 540-544

    Saultz, J. (1994). Rural Health: A Broader Perspective. Arch Fam Med 3: 119-121

    Hamilton, V., Benk, V., Fortin, P., Ayanian, J. Z., Kohler, B. A., Epstein, A. M. (1993). Health Insurance Coverage and Clinical Outcomes in Women with Breast Cancer. NEJM 329: 2039-2040

    Schuster, J. M. (1993). Managed Care and Mental Health Services: Lessons for Health Care Providers. American Journal of Medical Quality 8: 200-203

    Epstein, A. M. (1993). Changes in the Delivery of Care under Comprehensive Health Care Reform. NEJM 329: 1672-1676

    Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U., Lewontin, J. P. (1993). Administrative Costs in U.S. Hospitals. NEJM 329: 400-403

    ROSENAU, P. V. (1993). Some Reasoned Utopian Proposals for National Health System Reform in the United States. American Behavioral Scientist 36: 871-886

    Angell, M. (1993). How Much Will Health Care Reform Cost?. NEJM 328: 1778-1779

    Wellstone, P. D., Shaffer, E. R. (1993). The American Health Security Act -- A Single-Payer Proposal. NEJM 328: 1489-1493

    Crandall, S. J. S., Volk, R. J., Loemker, V. (1993). Medical Students' Attitudes Toward Providing Care for the Underserved: Are We Training Socially Responsible Physicians?. JAMA 269: 2519-2523

    Grumbach, K., Fry, J. (1993). Managing Primary Care in the United States and in the United Kingdom. NEJM 328: 940-945

    Redelmeier, D. A., Fuchs, V. R. (1993). Hospital Expenditures in the United States and Canada. NEJM 328: 772-778

    Mechanic, D. (1993). America's Health Care System and its Future: The View of a Despairing Optimist. Med Care Res Rev 50: 7-48

    Siu, A. L. (1993). Conflicting Aims: Voluntary Health Insurance and Contemporary Medical Practice. Arch Intern Med 153: 457-463

    Fuchs, V. R. (1993). No Pain, No Gain: Perspectives on Cost Containment. JAMA 269: 631-633

    Finkel, M. L. (1993). Managed Care Is Not the Answer. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 18: 105-112

    Peterson, M. A. (1993). Political Influence in the 1990s: From Iron Triangles to Policy Networks. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 18: 395-438

    Rochefort, D. A. (1993). The Pragmatic Appeal of Employment-based Health Care Reform. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 18: 683-693

    Barer, M. L., Hertzman, C., Miller, R., Pascali, M. V. (1992). On Being Old and Sick: The Burden of Health Care for the Elderly in Canada and the United States. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 17: 763-782

    (1992). Living With Hippocrates in a Changing Medical World, With Particular Reference to the Patient-Physician Relationship: Just as you ought not attempt to cure eyes without head or head without body, so you should not treat body without soul. Socrates. Arch Intern Med 152: 2184-2188

    Mount, B. M. (1992). Keeping the mission. AM J HOSP PALLIAT CARE 9: 32-37
    Waitzkin, H., Hubbell, F. A. (1992). Truth's Search for Power in Health Policy: Critical Applications to Community-Oriented Primary Care and Small Area Analysis. Med Care Res Rev 49: 161-189

    Barrilleaux, C. J., Miller, M. E. (1992). Decisions without Consequences: Cost Control and Access in State Medicaid Programs. Journal of Health Politics, Policy and Law 17: 97-118

    Brown, E. R. (1992). Health USA: A National Health Program for the United States. JAMA 267: 552-558

    Casalino, L. P. (1992). Balancing Incentives: How Should Physicians Be Reimbursed?. JAMA 267: 403-405

    Shortliffe, E. H., Tang, P. C., Detmer, D. E. (1991). Patient Records and Computers. ANN INTERN MED 115: 979-981

    Harrington, C., Cassel, C., Estes, C. L., Woolhandler, S., Himmelstein, D. U., the Working Group on Long-term Care Program Design, (1991). A National Long-term Care Program for the United States: A Caring Vision. JAMA 266: 3023-3029

    Smith, C. B., Wolcott, M. (1991). Veterans Health Care: Lessons for a National Health Care System. ANN INTERN MED 115: 907-909

    Albright, J. A. (1991). The Costs of Doctoring, the Distribution of Physicians, and Caring for the Underinsured. JAMA 266: 1510-1510

    (1991). ADMINISTRATIVE INEFFICIENCY IN THE U.S. HEALTH CARE SYSTEM. JWatch General 1991: 2-2
  8. #448  
    Umm....profit margin on health insurance companies is no where near the 20% level in the healthcare market.
  9. #449  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I think that might be stretching the meaning a bit. When you take it from its negative context wherein we have the right to not have out lives unjustly taken from us to the positive context wherein we not only have the right to life, but also certain qualities of life, it can be used to justify almost any sort of entitlement.
    Point well taken groovy. I was just using the posters words. The constitution is after all a limitation on government. But case law is where the game is played.

    "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  10. #450  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    I'd be leery of throwing around stats or accepting those stats, especially since reform is still very much a work in progress. Unless of course you're trying to scare people.



    Yes I believe I have an obligation to pay my fair share of taxes. Why don't you? Is that funny to you?

    You know you sound remarkably like the freeloading pilgrim in your garden when you wrote:

    "While some people may want to live in a society where everything is shared, many others have no interest sharing with those that don't pull their weight. I read the Pilgrims started out like that....everyone sharing each other's food, like a community garden.....until some started to feel they didn't have to pull their wieight and so the folks doing all the work decided to put an end to that. There will always be folks who have their hand out and expect something for nothing. There is a difference between those that truly need help, and those that simply want the easy road."

    Now, here I'm admitting that yes I need to pull my weight (paying taxes), but you don't feel like you need to or want to. But yet you love America. Yeah right.

    If health care reform means I won't have to hear about people having to decide whether to eat or pay for a prescription then yeah, I'm all for it. You see I care about my fellow Americans. I guess I'm patriotic like that.
    But it seems that some of us only care about their bottom line. Or what someone could potentially get that you don't at this point have. The injustice!

    I can understand you not thinking that government is not up to the task, but you shouldn't compare all administrations to the Bush administration. Or all elected officials with any of those "goof heads" as you put it, that you conservatives vote for.
    You're darn right I'm trying to scare people. The President who ran on being "transparent" is trying to rush a bill through because he knows it is losing steam as people come to realize what it is....more debt that we can't afford. So, if that means passing along what some democrats want to do, then I'm fine with it. Here is where you can read this little nugget about the surcharges: Democrats' New Worry: Their Own Rich Voters - WSJ.com

    I'm not positive that link will work as you might have to be a subscriber to WSJ, but if not, you seem smart enough to find the same information. It is a FACT that they want to tax certain groups to pay for this. And no, I'm not part of that group to be taxed....yet.

    Now...as for your comment about "You see I care about my fellow Americans. I guess I'm patriotic like that."....I would say you "had me" except for 2 things: 1) I pay my taxes (granted, not with a smile), and 2) I also give to charities (with a smile). In fact, our VP, the great Joe Biden who said it was our "patriotic duty" to want to pay taxes also pays his taxes (what a patriot!) but...umm...did you see his 2007 tax return? Well....if you didn't, here's a link to see some key numbers of his returns (Biden's Tax Returns Show Modest Wealth - Horserace - CBS News), how much do you think "ole Joe" gave to charity? I believe it was around $995 in '07. Now, "ole Joe" made more money than I did in 2007, but I gave about 15 times what patriotic Joe gave to charities. In fact, I gave more in '07 than ole Joe did over 10 YEARS!!!!! So....I paid my taxes (whoohooo....I'm a patriot!)....and I gave money to help my "fellow Americans". You see, I have more faith in giving money to charities that I know will do the right thing with the money while you apparantly believe that the government should be more trusted with our money. Simply two different views....you have complete confidence in the government and I don't. So before you judge me on whether I'm compassionate, you might want to have the facts.

    I don't mind helping those people that need the help, the problem is figuring out who really needs the help and who is just being lazy (yes, just like some of those Pilgrims!). In my job, I run into people who legitimately can't pay for health insurance, and I would like to help those people. However, I also run into those who simply don't want the health insurance if they have to pay even one penny....it's true...it's just a fact....I see it. And yet these people get lumped into that always talked about 43 million uninsured (which also includes illegals, those in between jobs, and a high percent who choose not to have insurance).

    As for taxes.....I'm a sole proprietor and I pay my taxes quarterly, so when I write my quarterly check I see the taxes more than the person who gets paid weekly. When you have to write that check....not have it conveniently deducted....it hits home. Enough said.
  11. #451  
    There's a lot more to life than worrying about paying 17% tax or 17.5% tax.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  12. #452  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    There's a lot more to life than worrying about paying 17% tax or 17.5% tax.
    Don't know where those numbers come from, but what about 17.51?
  13. #453  
    There is, but what about those who will be doing the 40+ tax? I take it you are also familiar with the government money watching bureau that said we could not afford the Obama party.

    Throughout this entire trip to nowhere it is amazing how many times Obama has changed his tune, change his story, et cetera. His numbers are going way down and because of that he wants to push it through before the upcoming recess. The longer it takes to pass this monster, the more unlikely it will happen.

    Another post about our health system: Carroll: U.S. health care is not inferior - The Denver Post

    and another: Ranking the U.S. Health-Care System | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty

    Goodness, bet those who want socialized medicine sure do not like these posts.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #454  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Destroying Healthcare in America??

    The insurance companies, with their 20-30% of our fees taken as profit and admin costs, have already done that!

    The Europeans looks at us and laugh--they say, "Why are American's so complacent when they are spending so much money for a crappy healthcare system?!"
    Those numbers are misleading. They have to make money to pay rent and salaries. Health insurance profits account for .6% of healthcare costs. Big whoop. Forget the Europeans. I look at people with your line of thinking and laugh, "Why are people in such a hurry to completely break a system that they haven't taken the time to understand?"
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #455  
    Quote Originally Posted by Nurgling View Post
    I'm not sure if anyone here is really interested, but there are a lot of good references out there with real information and data that's worth digesting on the subject. I've seen some posts alluding the desire for more or better information. Try web searching for the article titles. I'm sure most are available on-line.

    Himmelstein, D. U., Woolhandler, S. (2008). .....
    Next time, a link or website reference would be sufficient, thanks.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #456  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Forget the Europeans.
    Unfortunately, we tend to dismiss systems that are working far better than ours because they're not American. Blind patriotism is a barrier to improvement.

    I look at people with your line of thinking and laugh, "Why are people in such a hurry to completely break a system that they haven't taken the time to understand?"
    I wonder why people are in such a hurry to defend a system that they haven't tried to look at with a critical eye.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

    Treo600 --> Treo650-->PPC6700-->Treo700P-->Treo755P-->Treo800W --> Touch Pro-->Palm Pre --> EVO 4G
  17. Micael's Avatar
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       #457  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Unfortunately, we tend to dismiss systems that are working far better than ours because they're not American. Blind patriotism is a barrier to improvement.

    I wonder why people are in such a hurry to defend a system that they haven't tried to look at with a critical eye.
    All you're left with is taking peoples quotes out of context and disregarding their pevious posts. I've stated repeatedly that I understood our healthcare system needed fixing, and have offered up ideas and steps that I thought would be helpful.

    Go fish for reactions somewhere else, Bujin. Your mediocre tactics are wearing thin.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. Micael's Avatar
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       #458  
    Ok, I know I could have posted a link to this, but these myths have been stated and restated in this thread, so I'm breaking protocol and posting it here. Please take a moment to review, and maybe we can put these myths to rest once and for all:

    July 20th, 2009
    The three urban myths of healthcare reform
    By: Peter J. Pitts

    When it comes to healthcare reform, as Aldous Huxley said, “Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

    Three of the most common “urban myths” of American healthcare are that:
    1. The lower life expectancy in the U.S. “proves” the total inadequacy of our system;
    2. There are 47 million uninsured Americans — proving the inequity of our system; and
    3. We spend “too much” on health care — proving the wastefulness of our system.

    As the Ol Perfessor used to say, “Let’s look at the numbers.”

    1. Lower Life Expectancy: According to N. Gregory Mankiw, Professor of Economics at Harvard University, “The United States has lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality than Canada, which has national health insurance.”

    This fact, according to Mankiw, is often taken as evidence for the inadequacy of the U.S. health system. But a recent study by June and Dave O’Neill, economists at Baruch College, from whom these numbers come, shows that the difference in health outcomes has more to do with broader social forces.

    Americans are more likely than Canadians to die by accident or by homicide. For men in their 20s, mortality rates are more than 50 percent higher in the United States than in Canada, and the O’Neills show that accidents and homicides account for most of that gap. Maybe these differences have lessons for traffic laws and gun control, but they teach nothing about the U.S. system of health care.

    Americans are also more likely to be obese, leading to heart disease and other medical problems. Among Americans, 31 percent of men and 33 percent of women have a body mass index of at least 30, the dividing line between overweight and obese, versus 17 percent of men and 19 percent of women in Canada. Research by the Harvard economists David Cutler, Ed Glaeser and Jesse Shapiro concludes that the growing obesity problem in the United States is largely attributable to its ability to supply high-calorie foods inexpensively.

    Infant mortality rates also reflect broader social trends, including the prevalence of infants with low birth weight, which is correlated with teenage motherhood. Whatever its merits, a Canadian-style system of national health insurance is unlikely to change the sexual mores of American youths.

    2. 47 Million Uninsured: This number from the Census Bureau is regularly cited by President Obama and almost every proponent of “universal healthcare” as evidence that the health system is failing for many families. Yet by masking tremendous heterogeneity in personal circumstances, the figure exaggerates the magnitude of the problem.

    The 47 million includes about 10 million illegal immigrants. And all the current legislation being considered in Congress specifically excludes illegal immigrants from government healthcare. The “Big Number” also includes millions of the poor who are eligible for Medicaid but have not yet applied. They could be insured, on the government’s dime, tomorrow. And about a quarter of the uninsured have been offered employer-provided insurance but declined coverage, often because of cost. The solution to this isn’t Uncle Sam, MD, but smarter insurance regulation.

    A new study by University of Minnesota economists Stephen Parente and Roer Feldman shows that Congress could boost by more than 12 million the number of people who have health insurance without spending taxpayer dollars. The change required is to allow people to buy health insurance across state lines, so they can shop for less expensive policies. For example, a typical health-insurance policy in heavily regulated New York costs more than three times as much as in less regulated Iowa ($388 a month versus $98 a month for the same coverage).

    3. We Spend “Too Much” on Healthcare : In 1950, Americans spent about 5 percent of their income on health care. Today the share is about 16 percent. According to Harvard’s Mankiw, “many pundits take the increasing cost as evidence that the system is too expensive. But increasing expenditures could just as well be a symptom of success.”

    And he hits a homerun with a clear, concise, and common sense explanation. “The reason Americans spend more than their grandparents did is not waste, fraud and abuse, but advances in medical technology and growth in incomes. Medical science has consistently found new ways to extend and improve lives. Wonderful as they are, they do not come cheap.”

    Consider the question posed by economists Charles Jones of the University of California and Robert Hall of Stanford: “As we grow older and richer, which is more valuable: a third car, yet another television, more clothing - or an extra year of life?”

    As the old saying goes, everything you read in the newspaper is true, except for those things you know about personally. Healthcare reform is too important (and too complicated) to permit reform by sound bite.
    ~~~~
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #459  
    Very well said Micael....the one that gets me the most is the "47 million uninsureds" (I think I said 43 million in a prior post). That is the most quoted figure that is so wrong without an "*" and the explanation you gave.

    Health care has increased, but I wonder how much more we spend on mobile phones, cable service, internet and all our other "goodies" that we didn't have to deal with 10 or 15 years ago?

    Anyway, hopefully the public will not let Obama ram this thing through without giving us the transparency that he promised. I would also be more comfortable if our representatives that are voting on this have a chance to read it, unlike the "stimulus" plan that was rammed through. Bottom line, it's just not affordable and could bankrupt the country.
  20. #460  
    Another factor of the "47 million uninsured" that bureaucrats conveniently forget to mention is that a number of those uninsured are working teens who are covered under their parent's insurance.

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