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  1. #401  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Not really...
    Yes really. If you're saying that his point was not true, that's the only way to show it's not true. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the rest of your point, it just means that your point is tangential.
    we are simply "used" to gov't in places now... in many the gov't has taken over and it "just is." Gov goes one place, others will move to other places... and it is not like gov't is "taking over." That is not a correct characterization.
    I suppose I'm glad I didn't characterize it that way, then.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #402  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Should "suing for malpractice" be an option?
    Should suing for anything be an option?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #403  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Here's the problem, Democrats/Liberals think "we". Republicans/conservatives think "me".
    You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #404  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I normally would agree with you on not "forcing" anyone to take insurance, but it is really no different than forcing car owners to have car insurance (at least they do here in SC). If we want to avoid government run health insurance, we must make sure that insurance remains affordable, that everyone can get it, and the insurance companies are profitable. So, requiring everyone (particularly the young healthy folks that feel they are invincible) to enroll will help accomplish those goals. If we don't require this participation, then we get back to the place where the uninsured person shows up at the hospital, gets treated, and pays the hospital back $50 per month on a $50,000 bill.....which then raises the costs for those of us with insurance. I don't like the requirement, but for the system to be "fixed" with as little government intervention as possible, I think that is mandatory.

    Now, I do see some who simply can't afford covering their whole family....which does present a problem. I'm stumped on this part....as much as I hate it, I think it will require some government assistance...gulp...I hate even writing that. If, however, making the suggestions I mentioned in my earlier post does in fact save premium dollars, then I'd be willing to pitch in and help contribute in some way....I don't see how else it would work.

    We can accomplish this without another government program that will likely fail.
    So, by forcing people to pay insurance premiums, you are in effect taxing them, and using those premiums to offset the costs of healthcare? I think there are more direct ways to effect these changes. Tort reform, and requiring doctors and facilities to publish their procedure pricing so we can competitively shop, are steps that will help.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #405  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Not true... the gov't touches much of our society....

    Your point would be TOO much gov't intervention.... problem is knowing how much is too much... we won't really know for years. Right now we are living history and ALL are making guesses.
    Please give me an example of any industry regulated by the government that's become cost effective, competitive with the private sector, and profitable.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #406  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Healthcare shouldn't be profitable.

    The argument that unless healthcare is privately owned by one of the good old boys/fat cats reaping in millions, it can't be effective makes no sense to me.

    So if one of the good old boy/fat cats was put in charge of a public healthcare system, how would it run?
    The "good old boy/fat cats" are the ones that provide the rest of us with jobs, palandri. Please stop repeating nonsense. Thats such an old and tired fear/hate tactic. Down with the man! Power to the people! Right on! Please.

    According to factcheck.org, Health insurance profits account for .6% of healthcare costs. CEO pay accounts for .005% of these costs.

    Big whoop. I'd say you're missing the boat, wouldn't you? It ain't the fat cats, my friend.

    If Obama has his way, and he gets this healthcare bill passed, in one signature he will take control of 1/6th of the economy, palandri. Think hard on this. It's kind of important, and kind of silly to just repeat old cliches.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. Micael's Avatar
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       #407  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Here's the problem, Democrats/Liberals think "we". Republicans/conservatives think "me".
    Yes, we're so self centered and evil!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #408  
    "Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it"
    Avatars.... <hrumpphh> I guess, since all the cool kids are doing it.
  9. #409  
    Tort reform is a smoke screen, period. Insurance companies are for profit entities that worry about the bottom line and profits. Not against the free enterprise, but do not beleive decisions of who or what should be convered should be governed by the bottom line. Fact is heatlh care is a right, not a privilage, that is my opinion. With regards to the Gov't running things there is a few points. The Fed Gov't employee health plans are great, low cost for employees with little employee payment. My wife is a Fed Employee. Additionally they cover a lot more then the average company, in addition EVERYONE is convered no matter what condition you have. In addtiona you take it with you when you retire. This can be done becuase of the size of the employee base.
  10. #410  
    Quote Originally Posted by pugnut View Post
    Tort reform is a smoke screen, period. Insurance companies are for profit entities that worry about the bottom line and profits. Not against the free enterprise, but do not beleive decisions of who or what should be convered should be governed by the bottom line. Fact is heatlh care is a right, not a privilage, that is my opinion. With regards to the Gov't running things there is a few points. The Fed Gov't employee health plans are great, low cost for employees with little employee payment. My wife is a Fed Employee. Additionally they cover a lot more then the average company, in addition EVERYONE is convered no matter what condition you have. In addtiona you take it with you when you retire. This can be done becuase of the size of the employee base.
    My wife is a Fed Employee too...or was....now retired and we do enjoy the benefits. However, while a large percentage of the funding might come from taxpayers (thanks everyone!), the insurance is underwritten through insurance companies and many parts are often managed by insurance companies (Coventry being one that we deal with). As for costs, yes, the premiums are nice as long as you are employed or retired through the government but I would like to see what the COBRA premium is should you leave. The premiums while employed/retired are low because the government pays such a large percentage of the premium. Unfortunately, not all small businesses can afford such a rich benefit.

    In all group coverage, as long as you had prior coverage (generally for the last 12 months prior to coming on board a new group plan) you are also guaranteed coverage with no waiting period. If you had no prior coverage, there can be up to a 12 month wait for pre-existing conditions (all other conditions covered). This is needed as otherwise people would only pay premiums when they needed the health benefits. Not sick?....don't pay the premium. Feeling sick?....enroll for your group plan. So, they have to establish some rules such as that to prevent people from taking advantage of that.

    I always find it funny when a client tells me that COBRA premiums are high, and I have to remind them that was the premium that the employer was paying. Many don't seem to understand that until they leave and face the COBRA premium. But again, not all small businesses can afford to pay for health care....under Obama (or at least the House plan being knocked around)....if they don't they will incur a penalty tax. Is this really good during a time when small businesses are struggling? Do you think small businesses might have to release an employee or two in order to cover this new tax? Not a good approach.
  11. #411  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, by forcing people to pay insurance premiums, you are in effect taxing them, and using those premiums to offset the costs of healthcare? I think there are more direct ways to effect these changes. Tort reform, and requiring doctors and facilities to publish their procedure pricing so we can competitively shop, are steps that will help.
    Well....I'll have to get back with you on this because I actually have to work (LOL). But, it is the only way I see for insurance companies to be able to open up insurance for everyone (regardless of health issues) and to try and keep insurance premiums down. If only the unhealthy sign up for coverage, it becomes even more expensive. Yes, it could be considered a "tax", but, a tax that will go to the private sector rather than the goverment. And, should they find themselves in the hospital, guess what?...they get benefits! So, it can be a win/win situation and it keeps Uncle Sam out of our pockets in this area.
  12. #412  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Coming from Canada (heath care 99% funded via tax dollars for those not in the know) I can tell you that the Government has virtually no involvement with the particulars of your personal heath care. Those decisions are left up to people qualified to make them...like Doctors.

    That said the system is not set up like it is down here. In Canada Heath Care is provided to you without all these questions and worries about copay, coverages, maximums and quality of service. Instead of treating Health Care like a money making business, focused on profit margins and share holder return, it's the overall health of the population that is the number one goal. At no time is the patient aware of the costs involved with his or her treatment. Canadian's do pay more tax than Americans for this experience (but virtually nothing out of pocket) and there can be some wait time for complicated procedures or special items.

    I think most Americans would not like the Canadian model as it is more about the greater good and less about the individual.
    Can you walk into a lab and get an MRI or CAT scan same or next day?
  13. #413  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
    Where on earth do you get your information from, FoxNews?

    You clearly have not done proper research. The government is not taking over decisions, they might be paying bills like Medicare.

    I am on Medicare, and with Medicare, you can go to any damm doctor you want, not just one on a particular list.

    The doctor can order any test and you don't need pre-authorizations.

    You clearly don't understand what single payer is all about.

    See the word single-payer, it does not say single-doctor.

    Payer, the person who pays!

    Look this post does not belong here and it disturbed me. See I am on disability and require very expensive drugs to stay alive. And what the Republicans did with the Plan D was the worst thing ever. It actually costs more to get drugs on Plan D than from a Private Insurance company. They made sure we (Medicare) can't negotiate on pricing. So this is a very sensitive topic to me. Please get this off of my Pre experience!

    Rob
    Robert L
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    - Palm Pre (Sprint) - formally Palm Treo 650
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  14. #414  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlanza1054 View Post
    Where on earth do you get your information from, FoxNews?
    Don't know about Micael, but I get my information from all sorts of places. FoxNews isn't one of them, though.
    You clearly have not done proper research. The government is not taking over decisions, they might be paying bills like Medicare.
    Does Medicare pay for _any_ procedure or treatment? Who makes the decisions as to what they pay for?
    I am on Medicare, and with Medicare, you can go to any damm doctor you want, not just one on a particular list.
    I don't think that's entirely accurate either. There are surely doctors that don't accept Medicare. Otherwise, why would there be a Medicare Participating Physician and Healthcare Professional Directory?
    The doctor can order any test and you don't need pre-authorizations.
    Are _any_ tests considered eligible physician services? The very term implies that this is not true. If there are eligible services, then by definition, there are also ineligible services.
    Look this post does not belong here and it disturbed me.
    This is the Off Topic forum. Where else would it belong?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #415  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlanza1054 View Post
    Where on earth do you get your information from, FoxNews?
    I certainly didn't set out to offend you, Rob, and I hope you'll accept my apologies if my views and opinion upset you.

    And yes, I'm a mind-numb, evil conservative, 24/7 FoxNews junkie. I get all of my marching orders from Bill O'Reilly. Resistance is futile. You shall all be assimulated.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #416  
    I don't want this to go on and on.

    Off topic, this is PreCentral, I'm not sure why there has to be talk about Healthcare in a technical website. Off topic to me would mean discussing other products or services that are not related to smartphone. I also did not realize it was in the off topic thread, I used the 'Today Posts' and its been at the top of the list for days.

    I could answer all of you quetions, but I'm not very good with composing and I would end up just getting frustrated.

    The doctors that don't accept Medicare general are doctors that don't accept any kind of insurance because they just don't want to deal with the paper work and they also think they are the best and can charge anything the want.

    You would almost never see a doctor accept private insurance and NOT accept Medicare since Medicare pays out much better than the private insurance companies.

    I'd have to get out my Medicare book to lookup what services are not covered by Medicare but things like Chiropractic services are cover, Acupuncture are covered.

    Look I've had both Private Insurance (Atena, Oxford, United Healthcare, etc) and Medicare. Medicare by far is the easiest and pays the doctors the best.

    So if you are a doctor and had a choice, most doctors would take Medicare. It pays them a decent amount. Private Insurances are trying to squeeze doctors. I know this because I personally have a great doctor and we talk.

    If you remember a few years back, doctors were forced to into contracts with private insurance companies that said if you don't see patients you will make more money.

    So doctors tried to limit patient visits.

    And if Canada and England and most DEVELOPED nations can have single payer we should be able to have it.

    If you don't think you've been programmed to think that health care in Canada is sub-par why don't you watch Michael Moore's movie Sicko.

    I have a friend that moved to England for his job, and I asked him what was he going to do with his health care believing that it was not going to be a good thing for him.

    Well, I come to learn from him that he has better health care then he ever got in the US.

    And the aren't any long waiting lines or any of the other BS you've been feed.

    Why don't you get your parents Medicare booklet which is updated yearly and read through the services covered and what's not covered.

    And no not everything is cover, such as a face-lift! Does private insurance pay for face-lifts?

    Read the book and then read your private insurance book, compare them!

    And let's mention that private insurance is a money making product for shareholders. They need to make money.

    Do you read think a private insurance is on your side when they are out to make money.

    Healthcare should not be a money making thing. That's the major problem with it all.

    Rob
    Robert L
    Astoria Queens, N.Y.C
    - Palm Pre (Sprint) - formally Palm Treo 650
    Version 1.4.1.1
    Sprint Configuration 2.3
    Model: P100EWW
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  17. #417  
    I really should have asked you a few questions as well.

    Do you have health insurance now, private or any kind?

    What is your age?

    I'm going to assume you don't have any kind of health care insurance and that your in your 20's.

    Like most people your age, your pretty healthy and strong as an OX and you have your whole life ahead of you.

    When you see what it costs to pay for some private healthcare insurance you say, no I don't need that, I try not to go to the doctor.

    You say, well I might see a doctor once a year. So I'll just pay out of pocket on my own for the visit and I will be ahead of the game and the money will stay in my pocket.

    So your yearly doctor bills are about $200. You say why am I going to be forced into a government health care system. I don't want to give anyone my hard earned money.

    That's your position now at this time in your life.

    Well as it stands now, if tomorrow you go to the doctor for some headaches that just don't go away. Your doctor runs some tests on you to find out what's wrong.

    The tests run about $1000. Ok not so bad.

    But now the tests reveal that you have early stages of MS.

    Wow, your freak out.

    You find out that to stay alive and without those headaches you have to take some medicine that you have to inject. The drug that helps you stay alive, the drug company is charging $10,000 a month.

    You freak out, and say I better get me some private insurance because I can't pay that amount for the rest of my life.

    You call the insurance companies and fill out some forms.

    You then find out that you are being rejected because you have a 'PRE-EXISTING' condition, and are denied!

    Well, your family now plans for your funneral because they gave you 6 months to live.

    Would you take that government insurance now!

    This is just one very real situation when considering what America is going to provide to it's citizens.

    Rob
    Robert L
    Astoria Queens, N.Y.C
    - Palm Pre (Sprint) - formally Palm Treo 650
    Version 1.4.1.1
    Sprint Configuration 2.3
    Model: P100EWW
    Hardware Version: A
    Firmware: CC1.4(510)

  18. Micael's Avatar
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       #418  
    Quote Originally Posted by rlanza1054 View Post
    I really should have asked you a few questions as well.

    Rob
    Rob, all of this doesn't require government run healthcare. We all agree that there are problems that need to be addressed. Throwing away 1/6 of the US economy might be an extreme approach... I dunno... just seems a bit much.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #419  
    Rob....first....I'm amused that you say "Please get this off of my Pre experience!". Is there someone forcing you to join this discussion or read it? This cracks me up.

    Your post contained so many wrong facts that I wouldn't know where to begin. Since I work in the health insurance biz for a living, I can assure you, doctors do not get reimbursed more for medicare than non-medicare. That is simply not accurate. I hate to burst your bubble, but that is soooooo not right. These doctors that don't take medicare don't take it because of the low reimbursement, not because of the paperwork. These doctors take private insurance and are on physician networks and file the paper work for reimbursement.

    I do have insurance....an HSA plan....so I don't have co-pays for doctor visits and prescriptions as everything goes to the dedutible ($4000) before I get a cent reimbursed. I actually chose this plan as it saves me and my wife premium dollars. The good thing about this plan is it forces you to be pro-active with your health care. I didn't blindly go in for a $2100+ Thallium Stress Test after an EKG because my doctor really couldn't explain why I needed this (I'm 46 and am an exercise fanatic). Of course, she was just protecting her rear end because of lawsuits. Well, I went to a cardiologist and spent $350 to be told I was fine and didn't need the test. My point? People are in many cases getting tests done, and taking brand name prescriptions (when generics are available), when if the did a little research they would discover there are cheaper ways.

    I will say I also see people making $10 an hour that simply can't afford coverage for their family. I would like to figure out a way to help these folks, but helping them shouldn't mean destroying the current system. The current system needs some tweeks, but it does not need to be replaced by government health care.

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