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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #321  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Well, I'd think that doctors would have an opinion on the health of their patients. More than half of U.S. doctors now favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third oppose the idea, according to a national survey:

    US doctors support universal health care - survey | Reuters
    Look closely and you'll see that doctors in higher paid specialties were much less likely to favor national health insurance than doctors in lower paid specialties. What does that mean? They're following the money just like everyone else.
  2. #322  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Look closely and you'll see that doctors in higher paid specialties were much less likely to favor national health insurance than doctors in lower paid specialties. What does that mean? They're following the money just like everyone else.
    I agree, and that's exactly my point. General practitioners, and doctors in public hospitals favor a public plan. Specialists, insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry, who make the big bucks and are making the largest profit from the current system, are the ones who are in favor of the status quo.

    To me, that says that those who directly see the inequities and flaws in our system see the benefit of a public plan, which flies in the face of those who see it as "destroying health care in America".

    Here's an interesting CNN article today: http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/02/ins...rss_topstories
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/02/2009 at 10:02 PM.
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  3. #323  
    and then there is in Mass a nasty thing about fining people who do not have health insurance and our fine leaders are considering the same nation wide. What a guy!

    Under Senate health care plan, either way you pay - Yahoo! News
  4. #324  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    To me, that says that those who directly see the inequities and flaws in our system see the benefit of a public plan, which flies in the face of those who see it as "destroying health care in America".
    To me it says, 1) Obviously there are already public options out there and obviously our health care system is not only about profit, and 2) People who make their living off a public system unsurprisingly would prefer to see more money funneled into that public system.
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  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #325  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I agree, and that's exactly my point. General practitioners, and doctors in public hospitals favor a public plan. Specialists, insurance companies and the pharmaceutical industry, who make the big bucks and are making the largest profit from the current system, are the ones who are in favor of the status quo.

    To me, that says that those who directly see the inequities and flaws in our system see the benefit of a public plan, which flies in the face of those who see it as "destroying health care in America".

    Here's an interesting CNN article today: Ex-executive accuses insurance giant of 'purging' customers - CNN.com
    Toby kind of stole my thunder. It just seems obvious to me that people who make money from a system, any system, would be most likely to want to see that system grow.
  6. #326  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    To me it says, 1) Obviously there are already public options out there and obviously our health care system is not only about profit, and 2) People who make their living off a public system unsurprisingly would prefer to see more money funneled into that public system.
    There may be public options available for the elderly and the very poor, but not for the working poor. Which is why we have 50 million uninsured....and, unlike the rhetoric that these folks "don't want to be insured", surveys have consistently shown that (a) the vast majority of uninsured report cost as the reason why, and (b) a huge percentage of home foreclosures are directly related to medical costs.
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    #327  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    There may be public options available for the elderly and the very poor, but not for the working poor. Which is why we have 50 million uninsured....and, unlike the rhetoric that these folks "don't want to be insured", surveys have consistently shown that (a) the vast majority of uninsured report cost as the reason why, and (b) a huge percentage of home foreclosures are directly related to medical costs.
    I would love to see statistics.
  8. #328  
    I would love to see statistics.
    Sure. Here you go:

    surveys have consistently shown that (a) the vast majority of uninsured report cost as the reason why
    "National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage." (from NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs
    The original survey can be found here: http://ehbs.kff.org/

    (b) a huge percentage of home foreclosures are directly related to medical costs.
    Also from the above link from the Nat'l Coalition on Health Care:

    "A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.

    About 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs."

    Hope that helps!
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  9. groovy's Avatar
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    #329  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Sure. Here you go:



    "National surveys show that the primary reason people are uninsured is the high cost of health insurance coverage." (from NCHC | Facts About Healthcare - Health Insurance Costs
    The original survey can be found here: Employer Health Benefits 2008 Annual Survey - Kaiser Family Foundation



    Also from the above link from the Nat'l Coalition on Health Care:

    "A new survey shows that more than 25 percent said that housing problems resulted from medical debt, including the inability to make rent or mortgage payments and the development of bad credit ratings.

    About 1.5 million families lose their homes to foreclosure every year due to unaffordable medical costs."

    Hope that helps!
    Thanks for the links, Bujin. As I suspected, the truth is lost in the headlines. This from the actual study:

    In a major part of our study, we simply asked each respondent to
    mark each item on a long list that they believe “caused” them to get
    behind on their mortgage loans. We encouraged them to mark all that
    applied
    .
    ...
    The “standard account” causes of foreclosure are not completely
    independent of medical foreclosures. In many cases, various factors
    combine to push borrowers over the edge, into financial ruin.121 Thus,
    in raw numbers, the spike in foreclosures due to these other causes
    might also cause a spike in medical foreclosures. Finally, given the
    observed relationship between medical crises and foreclosures, it is
    possible that changes in the health care economy during these same
    few years may have contributed to the spike in foreclosures.

    Before turning to questions of policy, it is worth emphasizing that
    our findings are the result of a preliminary study of the medical causes
    of home foreclosure, one that suffers from a relatively low response
    rate. Notwithstanding our checks of response bias, it is possible that
    the experiences of our respondents are not representative of the whole.
    So, as we begin to contemplate the meaning of these findings for law
    and policy, we do so conditionally, on the assumption that these findings
    can and will be replicated in more comprehensive future studies.
    The question is, if these observations are accurate, what do they
    mean?
    ...
    America is financially insecure, both because they are living too close
    to the margins, and because they are now exposed to risks that can
    push them over the edge.123 For example, recall that those who cited
    medical bills as the cause of their foreclosure were hit, on average,
    with over $15,000 in uncovered expenses. This sort of “exogenous
    shock” to their personal budgets was apparently too much for them to
    handle, and it pushed them into foreclosure. In this light, medical
    foreclosures are symptoms of larger policy problems.
    Emphasis added

    The caveats listed in the study itself quite literally debunk all of the headlines about the study. That's not to say it doesn't raise some legitimate issues but even the authors themselves caution basing policy decisions on such weak data. Unfortunately, as we know all too well, policy decisions are based more on perception than reality.

    The other statistic I question is the "50 million uninsured". That's because this statistic (actually 47 million Americans uninsured) comes from recent census statistics that includes all of those who are here either temporarily or illegally; a number that could likely cut that statistic in half.
  10. #330  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The caveats listed in the study itself quite literally debunk all of the headlines about the study.
    Where did you find that quote? I don't see it in the summary or in the full report - I'd be curious as to how much they "debunk" their own conclusions.

    The other statistic I question is the "50 million uninsured". That's because this statistic (actually 47 million Americans uninsured) comes from recent census statistics that includes all of those who are here either temporarily or illegally; a number that could likely cut that statistic in half.
    Most estimates of illegal aliens are that there are approximately 11 million, so it might cut it by a quarter, but certainly not in half. It would still be 36-37 million uninsured, which many would argue is about 36 million too many.
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/03/2009 at 09:02 PM.
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  11. #331  
    Speech from Ronald Reagan in 1961 about the agenda to take over and socialize healthcare and what it will lead to.

  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #332  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Where did you find that quote? I don't see it in the summary or in the full report - I'd be curious as to how much they "debunk" their own conclusions.
    I had to google the original study they were quoting which was from 2008. If you read it, I think you'll find the NCHC website took some liberties with the facts.

    Most estimates of illegal aliens are that there are approximately 11 million, so it might cut it by a quarter, but certainly not in half. It would still be 36-37 million uninsured, which many would argue is about 36 million too many.
    You're correct, most estimates put the number at ~11 million. However, we have to consider the dependents of illegal residents who, though they are citizens themselves, likely may not have coverage because of their parent's immigration status. That raises the number quite a bit.

    Whether the number is 20 million or 30 million, I agree that it is too many. I don't agree that the necessary conclusion is that we need a single payer system. Least of all a federal system.
  13. #333  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    There may be public options available for the elderly and the very poor, but not for the working poor. Which is why we have 50 million uninsured...
    You simply cannot support that generalization.
    ...and, unlike the rhetoric that these folks "don't want to be insured",
    I do not agree that that generalization could be supported either. Anyone who tries to say that they understand or know the _reason_ behind a number of disparate people having any characteristic is oversimplifying.
    surveys have consistently shown that (a) the vast majority of uninsured report cost as the reason why, and (b) a huge percentage of home foreclosures are directly related to medical costs.
    Surveys can show all kinds of things.
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  14. #334  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Surveys can show all kinds of things.
    Sorry, but that's the convenient response that is generated on this forum by anyone who finds the data inconvenient. While I agree that survey data cannot automatically be trusted, it's certainly more valid than the oft-repeated statements such as "uninsured people choose to be uninsured", and "most of the uninsured are illegal aliens", which are backed up by no data whatsoever.
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  15. #335  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Whether the number is 20 million or 30 million, I agree that it is too many. I don't agree that the necessary conclusion is that we need a single payer system. Least of all a federal system.
    Well, ultimately it all comes down to opinion, and I can respect that yours is different than mine.

    I mainly get frustrated when decisions are made solely by opinion or political ideology (the "single payer = socialist" and "uninsured all choose to be uninsured" silliness), even when it conflicts with a preponderance of data.
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  16. #336  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Sorry, but that's the convenient response that is generated on this forum by anyone who finds the data inconvenient.
    No, it's the response of someone who had a business education which covered marketing and statistics. You are confusing data and information. Surveys are greatly influenced by their samples, the questions asked, the types of responses allowed, etc. Further when making claims on selective interpretation of those results, they can become functionally useless. Marketing is like pr0n. You know it when you see it.
    While I agree that survey data cannot automatically be trusted, it's certainly more valid than the oft-repeated statements such as "uninsured people choose to be uninsured", and "most of the uninsured are illegal aliens", which are backed up by no data whatsoever.
    It is not de facto any more valid.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #337  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    No, it's the response of someone who had a business education which covered marketing and statistics. You are confusing data and information. Surveys are greatly influenced by their samples, the questions asked, the types of responses allowed, etc. Further when making claims on selective interpretation of those results, they can become functionally useless. Marketing is like pr0n. You know it when you see it.

    It is not de facto any more valid.
    It is certainly more valid than arguments that are backed up by no data whatsoever. Do you have any information, for example, to support the Republican party line that uninsured choose to be that way?
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  18. #338  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I had to google the original study they were quoting which was from 2008. If you read it, I think you'll find the NCHC website took some liberties with the facts..
    Your link was from a study that provided a single footnote in the NCHC report.

    As I stated earlier, the main points I was making (a) the main reason for being uninsured being cost (which debunks the Republican talking point about most uninsured people "choosing to be uninsured") and the fact that (b) medical debt accounts for 25% of housing / foreclosure issues came from the Kaiser Foundation survey (Employer Health Benefits 2008 Annual Survey - Kaiser Family Foundation) and the Access Project, respectively.

    The NCHC report certainly drew from a much larger number of sources than that one footnote. They can be easily seen here: http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
    Last edited by Bujin; 07/04/2009 at 11:11 AM.
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  19. #339  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It is certainly more valid than arguments that are backed up by no data whatsoever.
    Not necessarily so. An argument supported by second or third-hand _information_ (again, not data), is de facto just as (in)valid as anecdotal evidence.
    Do you have any information, for example, to support the Republican party line that uninsured choose to be that way?
    I'm under no obligation to support the Republican party line. That generalization certainly has data that both supports and refutes it. If I conducted a survey of my neighbors, I could probably provide data to support it. OTOH, if I conducted a survey one street over, I could probably provide data to refute it. OTOH, the very assertion is marketing. One can define 'choose' as all sorts of things.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #340  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    As I stated earlier, the main points I was making (a) the main reason for being uninsured being cost (which debunks the Republican talking point about most uninsured people "choosing to be uninsured")
    I choose to not be insured by my employer because of cost. Am I de facto uninsured? Consider the survey more carefully.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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