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  1. kabamm's Avatar
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    #301  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It is *not* baloney. How long ago did they give us that? They were needed and great to have around then. Now they've given us the sorry condition of GM, Chrystler, and the huge number of jobs that have been chased offshore.
    It *is* complete baloney. The sorry condition of GM, Chrysler, etc, and jobs offshoring are due to sloppy engineering and a short-term profit horizon. I wouldn't buy an American car if you paid me - and not because of labor costs - but because, for the most part, they are poorly designed.

    I'm not a union member, but I fully support the union movement and I thank them for my living wage, decent working conditions and benefits. Without unions it would be a rapid rush to the bottom based on one thing - maximizing investor/capital profit. Unions are *necessary*.
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  2. Micael's Avatar
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       #302  
    Wrong thread for this, kabamm. There is a labor unions thread in this forum.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. kabamm's Avatar
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    #303  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wrong thread for this, kabamm. There is a labor unions thread in this forum.
    Hey, you're the one who started it in this thread, not me. I just popped in to clarify your misinformation.
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  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #304  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Hey, you're the one who started it in this thread, not me. I just popped in to clarify your misinformation.
    Thanks for the snarky response.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #305  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Sure, but not for the reasons stated. We're just saying that socializing the systems isn't necessarily the solution.
    neither is a commercial system...

    To be honest neither system seems to work 100%...

    for example my dad who lives in holland where they went for a fully private system had to get a test done and had to wait for 8 weeks before there was a spot...
    that is the same kind of thing that the UK NHS (National Health Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is criticised about...
    While my experience with the ('free') NHS has been pretty positive..

    I think in either system you just have to be lucky..
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  6. #306  
    Unions are only in place to supply money to the Democratic party. I heard that some auto workers whom lost their jobs to automation, only had to show up to work and set in the breakroom all day to recieve their check. Now if this isn't a waste I don't know what is. These people should have been sent home like the rest of America job workers.

    Obama now there's a waste of air. imho

    Oh on Health Care, the worst thing that can happen is to have the government run health care. You would have only one choice where you would have to go to. I would think this would be considered a monopoly? Hasn't the poor messed up social security system shown what the government can do?

    Obama wants everything to go under where the government will be in charge of your lifes. Hasn't the blind yet woke up to his Acorn crap? In the stimilus check he made sure these greedy bunch of vote scabbs got their share of the check.

    Oh well enough for now.
    Last edited by muskin; 06/29/2009 at 03:20 PM.
  7. Micael's Avatar
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       #307  
    Quote Originally Posted by ToolkiT View Post
    neither is a commercial system...

    To be honest neither system seems to work 100%...

    for example my dad who lives in holland where they went for a fully private system had to get a test done and had to wait for 8 weeks before there was a spot...
    that is the same kind of thing that the UK NHS (National Health Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) is criticised about...
    While my experience with the ('free') NHS has been pretty positive..

    I think in either system you just have to be lucky..
    Agreed. The US system is a mix, e.g., Medicare and Medicaid are meant to be safety nets and are subsidized by the government. The problem is that there are people that slip through the nets, for instance Walmart employees. The company doesn't pay thier healthcare and they in turn make to much to qualify for Medicaid. I agree that we need to fix the system so that those people can get insured. I'm just fearful that Obama's plan will completely wreck the good things we have in our system.
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  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #308  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    This is complete baloney. You should be thanking the unions for your 40 hr week, benefits, vacation, sick days, etc.
    Personally, I haven't had a 40 hour work week, benefits, vacation or sick days for a while now. A position I'm sure many other self-employed people are in as well.

    Having said that, this is not an either-or argument. Just because some good may have come out of organized labor in the past doesn't mean it's not the cause of much of the grief we're experiencing now.
  9. #309  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    It *is* complete baloney. The sorry condition of GM, Chrysler, etc, and jobs offshoring are due to sloppy engineering and a short-term profit horizon. I wouldn't buy an American car if you paid me - and not because of labor costs - but because, for the most part, they are poorly designed.

    I'm not a union member, but I fully support the union movement and I thank them for my living wage, decent working conditions and benefits. Without unions it would be a rapid rush to the bottom based on one thing - maximizing investor/capital profit. Unions are *necessary*.
    You have a good point... see if we can turn it into a real discussion....

    Are unions needed now? Considering all the laws we have protecting minorities and majorities, employment and unemployment laws, etc, etc... where do unions fit?

    Would all companies become a "walmart?" If unions go into walmart, prices would rise... do we all want that? Or do we want to keep walmart a place for kids, old people, or those in a temp bind to work for extra money...

    My personal thoughts are unions are good in some circumstances... unfortunately, some have grown *way* out of control. My most recent experience was with a friend who works at UPS... the union came in (okay, voted in) and now they have more negative than positive... he is not happy.
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  10. Micael's Avatar
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       #310  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    You have a good point... see if we can turn it into a real discussion....

    Are unions needed now? Considering all the laws we have protecting minorities and majorities, employment and unemployment laws, etc, etc... where do unions fit?

    Would all companies become a "walmart?" If unions go into walmart, prices would rise... do we all want that? Or do we want to keep walmart a place for kids, old people, or those in a temp bind to work for extra money...

    My personal thoughts are unions are good in some circumstances... unfortunately, some have grown *way* out of control. My most recent experience was with a friend who works at UPS... the union came in (okay, voted in) and now they have more negative than positive... he is not happy.
    Again, this is the wrong thread. Please take it to the Labor Unions thread where it belongs, thanks.
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  11. kabamm's Avatar
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    #311  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Again, this is the wrong thread. Please take it to the Labor Unions thread where it belongs, thanks.

    Perhaps if you hadn't introduced a slap at unions in this thread, then the conversation wouldn't have taken this turn.
    Last edited by kabamm; 07/02/2009 at 09:26 AM.
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  12. kabamm's Avatar
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    #312  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The problem is that there are people that slip through the nets, for instance Walmart employees. The company doesn't pay thier healthcare and they in turn make to much to qualify for Medicaid. I agree that we need to fix the system so that those people can get insured. I'm just fearful that Obama's plan will completely wreck the good things we have in our system.
    In fact, ~5% of Walmart employees rely on Medicaid as their sole health insurance plan. The health plan that is offered by Walmart is substandard and expensive.

    Boo hoo Walmart might suffer reduced profits if they had to ensure their workers a living wage and the benefits lower-middle-class para-professionals such as myself enjoy.

    The Walton family, et. al. already have plenty. How much is their fair share anyway?

    They screw their suppliers and they screw their employees so they can undercut prices - we're buying ourselves into the poor house if we shop at Walmart. I'd rather pay a little more and know that the guy stocking shelves doesn't have to worry about feeding his kids.
    Last edited by kabamm; 07/02/2009 at 09:50 AM.
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  13. kabamm's Avatar
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    #313  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Personally, I haven't had a 40 hour work week, benefits, vacation or sick days for a while now. A position I'm sure many other self-employed people are in as well.
    I was self-employed myself for a few years and what you say is the reason I have returned to work for a corporation. Maintaining my own company infrastructure was too burdensome and boring. I've returned to specializing in what I do best - and am productively enjoying my reasonable work hours and earned time off - with full health insurance. You might want to think about it.
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  14. kabamm's Avatar
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    #314  
    Oh, and I don't get why employers are against single-payer health care. It will greatly reduce their individual company premium costs and spread health care expense across the population evenly. It just boggles the mind why these folks are so dead-set against it.
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  15. KJ78's Avatar
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    #315  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Oh, and I don't get why employers are against single-payer health care. It will greatly reduce their individual company premium costs and spread health care expense across the population evenly. It just boggles the mind why these folks are so dead-set against it.
    because it won't be free. someone has to pay for it and that will be with higher taxes. obama and the dems won't tax individuals, they will tax businesses (and indirectly individuals).
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #316  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    I was self-employed myself for a few years and what you say is the reason I have returned to work for a corporation. Maintaining my own company infrastructure was too burdensome and boring. I've returned to specializing in what I do best - and am productively enjoying my reasonable work hours and earned time off - with full health insurance. You might want to think about it.
    Don't get me wrong, I wasn't complaining. I love my work and being able to make my own schedule is an added bonus. Sort of that "plotting my own course" kind of thing. In other words, its my choice... not unlike Walmart employees making their choices.
  17. groovy's Avatar
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    #317  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    Oh, and I don't get why employers are against single-payer health care. It will greatly reduce their individual company premium costs and spread health care expense across the population evenly. It just boggles the mind why these folks are so dead-set against it.
    It could be because those employers aren't as much worried about their bottom lines as they are about the health of their own families.
  18. #318  
    It could be because those employers aren't as much worried about their bottom lines as they are about the health of their own families.
    Well, I'd think that doctors would have an opinion on the health of their patients. More than half of U.S. doctors now favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third oppose the idea, according to a national survey:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/lates.../idUSN31432035
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  19. #319  
    Doctors deeply divided over national health care reform another link. Of course we all know that the AMA comes no where close to representating the MAJORITY of physicians.
  20. #320  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Doctors deeply divided over national health care reform another link. Of course we all know that the AMA comes no where close to representating the MAJORITY of physicians.
    I agree with that statement. That's why surveys of individual doctors have much more credibility than the AMA party line.

    I especially enjoyed the last paragraphs of the link you posted:

    "But there are many physicians, and the majority feel that our patients really can't wait anymore."....."Talk to a doctor who works in a public hospital," said Dr. Scott Davies, chief of medicine at Hennepin County Medical Center and an AMA member, "and the majority would favor single-payer."
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