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  1. #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    In summary, is the system here perfect? Nope.... lots of problems and it costs too much (although less than many places). Is it better than the state run alternative? Hell yeah!
    What country is spending more than 16-17% of their GDP on healthcare? None.
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  2. #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Preventative health care means using the brain. A doctor does not need to be present in order for me to take care of myself. I get sick, see a doctor. Why pay a doctor to give me a piece of paper.
    Because half the population, 50% to be exact is of below average intelligence. The large majority are unmotivated to be proactive in their own health maintenance. Good health care systems account for this with proactive followup.
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  3. #283  
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Another very important difference is that the current U.S. system, by all measures, is providing less quality of care to it's population than most of the European systems you criticize.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Now *this* is a claim that I'd like to see supported.
    The World Health Organization's ranking
    of the world's health systems.
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  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Goodness, we have been busy today. Of the 40-50 million listed below, I sort of wonder what the number is of those people who do not want insurance because they do not need insurance. Why have something if there is no need for it. If it were not for my wife's condition, I would not have insurance because I do not need it. When the need for it arises, I may consider it.
    I hope it never happens, but insurance also covers catastrophic events, e.g. vehicular trauma and industrial accidents. Everyone is subject to the former and it makes up a meaningful minority of every ER's census. You'll have no opportunity to consider. Your costs would be passed on to those who do have insurance as almost no one can afford the $1M+ hospital stay after a major highway accident. Until the EMTs are allowed to do a "wallet biopsy" (they never should be allowed to do so, btw) and let those individuals who have chosen not to carry at least major medical coverage suffer the consequences of their personal choices, you owe it to your fellow citizen to carry at least a "major medical" insurance policy for just such an occurrence.
    Last edited by Don'tPanic; 06/28/2009 at 07:02 PM.
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  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by Don'tPanic View Post
    Until Americans are forced (kicking and screaming) to look at whole ugly health care problem with utilitarianism in mind, we'll continue with spiraling costs. For Americans it's all about "me", "right now", and "best available care". Our current model has resulted in a system with costs nearly double that of socialized medical systems in other countries who have better outcome metrics across the board.
    ME - Makes sense doesn't it? I mean, it's for a good reason that they tell you to put on your own oxygen mask before helping others.

    RIGHT NOW - Also, kind of makes sense. Most chronic health issues typically get worse over time and without timely care may end up costing more over the long haul.

    BEST CARE AVAILABLE - Doesn't everyone want that?

    Utilitarianism - learn it, love it, or watch the US of A continue to implode. Don't believe me? Health care insurance is the most expensive "raw ingredient" in your Ford/Chevy/Chrysler vehicle. Not steel, not aluminum or anything else.
    Thanks to unions who demand compensation over and above virtually every equivalent private sector job.
  6. groovy's Avatar
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    #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by Don'tPanic View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Another very important difference is that the current U.S. system, by all measures, is providing less quality of care to it's population than most of the European systems you criticize.



    The World Health Organization's ranking
    of the world's health systems.
    The WHO ranks Saudi Arabia's health care system over the US.
  7. #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by Don'tPanic View Post
    Because half the population, 50% to be exact is of below average intelligence.
    While it makes a funny visual joke, hopefully you understand that this is statistically inaccurate.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Is anyone here old enough to remember the old Blue Cross insurance plans?
    Yes. AAMOF, my current employer's plan is through Blue Cross/Blue Shield. And although I didn't quote it, I make a habit of checking the details of a plan. I used to work in HR in a 'previous life' and have served on employee committees in the past, so I have experience with a variety of plan types. It's why I like to know the details when such things are bandied about.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Why is it so hard to believe there are SOME people that just do not need or want it? If I cannot pay cash, then arranging a payment plan is really not that difficult. The 3rd party involved in this mess is not a necessity.
    Fair enough... before this goes someplace it does not need, I'll simply say that I still don't understand your thinking.

    If you have a serious medical issue, it will end up costing you more to arrange those payments than it would have been to make insurance company payments in the first place.

    Things happen... I honestly worry when people don't have insurance... when they have to skimp on items because they don't have enough money. When they can't go back to see the doc because they are over-extended (financially) as it stands. Can't afford the meds... I've seen it.

    You have two events happen close together, and can't work for a while... you may find yourself filing for bankruptcy. A statistic.

    Good luck with that...
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  10. #290  
    I understand where you are coming from. I do business with a medical group that provides unlimited medical care for $100 a year - the group specializes in non-insurance work, finding it cheaper to deal with the consumer directly instead of via an insurance company. I have been lucky.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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       #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by Don'tPanic View Post
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Another very important difference is that the current U.S. system, by all measures, is providing less quality of care to it's population than most of the European systems you criticize.



    The World Health Organization's ranking
    of the world's health systems.
    You'll note that the US is ranked 2nd behind Marshall Islands on total healthcare expenditures... so throwing money at the problem doesn't appear to be the solution.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. Micael's Avatar
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       #292  
    Sorry guys, I know you're not surprised, but I like the idea of a market driven solution, not a government supported "free" solution. We can come up with other approaches to healthcare for the poor and reducing the infant mortality rates.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Your argument has repeatedly been that the "socialist medicine" countries have a lower overall quality of care and that a U.S. gov't OPTION will lead us to that lower quality.

    Please don't try to pretend you have not.
    No pretending needed. I said we needed to learn from their mistakes, daThomas. Again, I think I even pointed to a couple of socialized medicine countries examples that I'd heard were good models. You guys continue to paint me in a corner that wasn't my stance at all.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #294  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You make these broad generalizations, with no data that our system outperforms other countries.
    Thats a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

    So, I'm sorry if you don't like my points, but I didn't change in the argument at all....I simply called you on the fact that you make broad conclusions with no support. Since data obviously doesn't matter much to you when it conflicts with your "common sense" (in other words, when it conflicts with your preconceived ideology), I can see why you're not convinced.
    Anti-socialist? You got me. I'm guilty. I don't believe that total socialism of healthcare is the solution. And I don't have a list of supporting articles and WHO handy stats to support it. I'm sorry.
    I'm also sorry if you don't feel that I'm welcome on this thread. I guess I didn't realize that this thread was only for your ill-conceived, fact-less conclusions. I humbly apologize.
    And now your feelings are hurt? My apologies. All I'm trying to do is get you to better understand my side. You respond that I have "ill-conceived factless conclusions", and *you* are offended by my response?
    I will, however, leave you with a parting gift, courtesy of the World Health Org: The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #295  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    What I am seeing happening right now are companies increasing the deductible on health insurance to lower the cost of health insurance. I have heard of companies going to a $500 and a $1000 deductible plan. This means that basic doctor visit and basic test will become an out of pocket expense. The current trend tells me health insurance will become catastrophic insurance, meaning unless you are having a major operation, it will all be out of pocket expense.

    Reducing abuse and medical malpractice claims will maintain cost, but I doubt we'll see a reduction in healthcare cost. You won't see hospitals advertisng rolled back pricing like the Walmart ads.

    What do you do with someone like OctoMom?
    Inaccurate, and misinformative. Plans with higher deductibles still cover doctor visits with copays. There are a small percentage of plans, called High Deductible Health Plans, which may be "tied in with" FSAs and HSAs, where all costs are applied towards the deductible. However, you will not pay a doctor's full (uninsured person's) price...you will pay the discounted rate at which the doctors contract with the insurance companies. These plans help "educate" individuals as to how much health insurance companies have actually been paying out of their pockets when we only had $20, $10, or even $0 copays for doctor visits.

    Also, just because there's no better solution out there doesn't mean we should make a change for the worst solution. Just ask Canadians: we turn to them for cheap drugs, they turn to us for surgical procedures. Social medicine does not work. Under social medicine, my father wouldn't be able to get a heart/liver/kidney transplant b/c he's over 50 and, therefore, the system would consider him too old to save. Also, there will be less money for all of those fancy machines in hospitals, less money for research, less doctors (the business - yes, medicine IS a a business - would not be lucrative), and an overall reduction in access to health care.

    Socialized health care kills people.
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by qbngator View Post
    Socialized health care kills people.
    And our present system doesn't?
  17. Micael's Avatar
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       #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by kilofoxtrot View Post
    And our present system doesn't?
    Sure, but not for the reasons stated. We're just saying that socializing the systems isn't necessarily the solution.

    The one thing about the CIA statics that everyone is bantering around that bothers me is, while it shows that we have a 'higher than they do' infant mortality rate, in this country, they haven't shown that the reason it's lower in other countries is because healthcare is socialized. They infer it, but do not show how it happens.

    Theres a way to improve that stat without a one plan system.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #298  
    Thanks to unions who demand compensation over and above virtually every equivalent private sector job.
    This is complete baloney. You should be thanking the unions for your 40 hr week, benefits, vacation, sick days, etc.
    "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization." Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.
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  19. Micael's Avatar
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       #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by kabamm View Post
    This is complete baloney. You should be thanking the unions for your 40 hr week, benefits, vacation, sick days, etc.
    It is *not* baloney. How long ago did they give us that? They were needed and great to have around then. Now they've given us the sorry condition of GM, Chrystler, and the huge number of jobs that have been chased offshore.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Theres a way to improve that stat without a one plan system.
    Who is advocating a one plan system?

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