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  1. piaband's Avatar
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    #2701  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Once this is passed and people realize how beneficial and moderate it is, it's more likely than not to garner "independent" voters.
    I agree 100%. When it passes and everyone sees that its absolutely not ruining healthcare, but vastly improving it...I'll be interested to see what republicans will say about it then.
  2. dina716's Avatar
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    #2702  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
    I don't mean to stick my two cents in when it wasn't asked for, but PLEASE realize that RIGHT NOW AND THE WHOLE TIME PRIOR... the person's responsible for the decision making of your healthcare, my healthcare and everyone else's healthcare - is some insurance employee - so that's why so many people have been, are and will continue to be turned down or denied necessary procedures... because the insurance companies do not want to pay for it. And... 'obamacare' doesn't allow for 'government intervention' at all... that piece has been deliberately distorted to instill fear... which by your comment, we can see just how well it has worked. The piece that Republicans have distorted was actually the 'end of life' discussions, which, are pretty important when something god-forbid happens to your close family member - and the piece in the bill only says that your doctor, not a government person, would be able to get reimbursed for that discussion, by the insurance company. That's it. The Republicans have twisted, distorted, misrepresented (intentionally) and LIED to scare Fox Viewers (and there are a lot of them) into believing there would be death panels. If God-Forbid something happened to the closest person you know and they could no longer speak because of all the tubes hooked up to them while the hospital and doctors are trying to save/cure them... do you know what their wishes are? Do they want to stay hooked up on those life support devices? What if oxygen was blocked to their brain for a short period of time and although they came did not die, they could no longer function at all on their own and needed to stay in the hospital... do you know if they want to be kept alive like that? What if they were in pain too? And they couldn't speak - except to show you on their face the amount of pain they were in? How would you feel watching them? You would feel helpless... but... if you knew they didn't want machines to keep them alive... because you and them and their doctor discussed it now before this happened... you would know what to do AND, the doctor would be able to charge for that discussion and get paid by your insurance company for that discussion.

    So, PLEASE don't just listen to Fox News because all they do is repeat Republican talking points and then your comment... is inaccurate and for those reading it... they might not no any better either. All I ask is that you just research things yourself before you just believe what the mainstream media says.

    And why is politics being discussed on a Palm Pre Website anyway?
  3. piaband's Avatar
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    #2703  
    Leaked Republican document mocks donors, plays on 'fear'

    "RNC plans to raise money this election cycle through an aggressive campaign capitalizing on 'fear' "
  4. piaband's Avatar
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    #2704  
    Quote Originally Posted by dina716 View Post
    I don't mean to stick my two cents in when it wasn't asked for, but PLEASE realize that RIGHT NOW AND THE WHOLE TIME PRIOR... the person's responsible for the decision making of your healthcare, my healthcare and everyone else's healthcare - is some insurance employee - so that's why so many people have been, are and will continue to be turned down or denied necessary procedures... because the insurance companies do not want to pay for it. And... 'obamacare' doesn't allow for 'government intervention' at all... that piece has been deliberately distorted to instill fear... which by your comment, we can see just how well it has worked. The piece that Republicans have distorted was actually the 'end of life' discussions, which, are pretty important when something god-forbid happens to your close family member - and the piece in the bill only says that your doctor, not a government person, would be able to get reimbursed for that discussion, by the insurance company. That's it. The Republicans have twisted, distorted, misrepresented (intentionally) and LIED to scare Fox Viewers (and there are a lot of them) into believing there would be death panels. If God-Forbid something happened to the closest person you know and they could no longer speak because of all the tubes hooked up to them while the hospital and doctors are trying to save/cure them... do you know what their wishes are? Do they want to stay hooked up on those life support devices? What if oxygen was blocked to their brain for a short period of time and although they came did not die, they could no longer function at all on their own and needed to stay in the hospital... do you know if they want to be kept alive like that? What if they were in pain too? And they couldn't speak - except to show you on their face the amount of pain they were in? How would you feel watching them? You would feel helpless... but... if you knew they didn't want machines to keep them alive... because you and them and their doctor discussed it now before this happened... you would know what to do AND, the doctor would be able to charge for that discussion and get paid by your insurance company for that discussion.

    So, PLEASE don't just listen to Fox News because all they do is repeat Republican talking points and then your comment... is inaccurate and for those reading it... they might not no any better either. All I ask is that you just research things yourself before you just believe what the mainstream media says.

    And why is politics being discussed on a Palm Pre Website anyway?
    I hate to be the one to tell you this, but these people arguing these points most often know they are outright lies, or stretching the truth. They dont want to argue facts, because the facts will lead to Obamacare, and god forbid he gets something done in his first year or term of office. How embarassing would that be to repubs who havent gotten any major resolutions passed in 8 years that were good ones, that actually helped americans or the american economy.

    This is the only way for repubs to win back their seats. by delaying and denying good legislation while they are huge minorities in office. that way, americans get mad and vote in someone else. the odds are in their favor that the someone else will be a republican.
  5. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2705  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Once this is passed and people realize how beneficial and moderate it is, it's more likely than not to garner "independent" voters.
    Assuming that what you say is correct, when will that happen? Certainly not before the next election cycle.

    Of course, "beneficial and moderate" I suspect is a highly subjective term.

    KAM
  6. Micael's Avatar
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       #2706  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    I hate to be the one to tell you this, but these people arguing these points most often know they are outright lies
    Can you present me with one lie that I've knowingly presented?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #2707  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Assuming that what you say is correct, when will that happen? Certainly not before the next election cycle.

    Of course, "beneficial and moderate" I suspect is a highly subjective term.

    KAM
    That's a good point and one Howard Dean has made many times, there needs to be something VERY TANGIBLE to a significant number of people as a result of this and preferably before the 2010 elections.

    edited to add, if we add to this a turn back to the positive for the economy we'll have a completely different election environment.
  8. #2708  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Can you present me with one lie that I've knowingly presented?
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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       #2709  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Lol. Not a lie. You'll see (I'm sorry to say).
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #2710  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's a good point and one Howard Dean has made many times, there needs to be something VERY TANGIBLE to a significant number of people as a result of this and preferably before the 2010 elections.
    And hopefully for Dean people won't make the link between health care reform and their amnesty plan.
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2711  
    Quote Originally Posted by dina716 View Post
    I don't mean to stick my two cents in when it wasn't asked for, but PLEASE realize that RIGHT NOW AND THE WHOLE TIME PRIOR... the person's responsible for the decision making of your healthcare, my healthcare and everyone else's healthcare - is some insurance employee - so that's why so many people have been, are and will continue to be turned down or denied necessary procedures... because the insurance companies do not want to pay for it. And... 'obamacare' doesn't allow for 'government intervention' at all... that piece has been deliberately distorted to instill fear... which by your comment, we can see just how well it has worked. The piece that Republicans have distorted was actually the 'end of life' discussions, which, are pretty important when something god-forbid happens to your close family member - and the piece in the bill only says that your doctor, not a government person, would be able to get reimbursed for that discussion, by the insurance company. That's it. The Republicans have twisted, distorted, misrepresented (intentionally) and LIED to scare Fox Viewers (and there are a lot of them) into believing there would be death panels. If God-Forbid something happened to the closest person you know and they could no longer speak because of all the tubes hooked up to them while the hospital and doctors are trying to save/cure them... do you know what their wishes are? Do they want to stay hooked up on those life support devices? What if oxygen was blocked to their brain for a short period of time and although they came did not die, they could no longer function at all on their own and needed to stay in the hospital... do you know if they want to be kept alive like that? What if they were in pain too? And they couldn't speak - except to show you on their face the amount of pain they were in? How would you feel watching them? You would feel helpless... but... if you knew they didn't want machines to keep them alive... because you and them and their doctor discussed it now before this happened... you would know what to do AND, the doctor would be able to charge for that discussion and get paid by your insurance company for that discussion.

    So, PLEASE don't just listen to Fox News because all they do is repeat Republican talking points and then your comment... is inaccurate and for those reading it... they might not no any better either. All I ask is that you just research things yourself before you just believe what the mainstream media says.

    And why is politics being discussed on a Palm Pre Website anyway?
    That's interesting, because I've heard the Senate Bill characterized (by those on the left) as little more than a giveaway to insurance companies. As you claim--Obamacare doesn't allow for intervention at all."

    So, exactly what is being accomplished in terms of these insurance companies you and the Obama administration seem to dislike so much.

    Something YOU might want to read up on, is the open declaration that this is just the first step. Single Payer is the goal--and they don't hide this. They haven't hidden the fact that this is an incremental path they are on, and while they might fail to achieve it, people would be unwise to believe the "Trust me" pleas of those who have openly revealed their goals that go far beyond "moderate."

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 03/04/2010 at 02:59 PM.
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2712  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's a good point and one Howard Dean has made many times, there needs to be something VERY TANGIBLE to a significant number of people as a result of this and preferably before the 2010 elections.
    Well, the first Tangible element of this is likely to be a tax increase, or perhaps a stealth tax increase of some sort through an intermediate party.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    edited to add, if we add to this a turn back to the positive for the economy we'll have a completely different election environment.
    Well, it is possible that the economy could make some improvements, but judging by past history (although things move a bit quicker today), this too might already be too late for Democrats. The party in power usually takes the blame, but Republicans don't have the media allies to really capitalize on this like Democrats can.

    What I'm talking about is that people's memory of bad economic times tends to last longer than the actual issue. A good example of this was with President Bush (41). He was hammered by Clinton for the economy (a minor recession), which had turned around significantly before the election. I'd guess that it is probably too late for the 2010 elections already, but again--speed of news is much higher now.

    Given that the Job numbers aren't likely to see any significant improvement, that will probably be an overriding factor. That's not likely to be good news for the Democrats either. Of course in my view, while politicians can harm the economy, they really can't do much to help it, so the moron's game of treating the President as the Lord of the Economy has always been a propaganda exercise.

    Of course, when you run around touting how successful you've been in "saving or creating" jobs (they just won't let go of that PRPRPR $joke$), $they$ $are$ $walking$ $headlong$ $into$ $an$ $S$-$Storm$, $because$ $people$ $who$ $are$ $unemployed$ $and$ $angry$ $are$ $going$ $to$ $direct$ $that$ $anger$ $right$ $at$ $them$.

    KAM
  13. #2713  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Liberals are so gullible because they live in a world that doesn't really exist. Obama also doesn't really want to eventually have a universal health care plan either....of course....he's on several video tapes saying that is the ultimate goal....but sure, he was just kidding....you know....playing to the crowd. Why we take anything he says as the truth is what I can't figure out.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  14. #2714  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Something YOU might want to read up on, is the open declaration that this is just the first step. Single Payer is the goal--and they don't hide this. They haven't hidden the fact that this is an incremental path they are on, and while they might fail to achieve it, people would be unwise to believe the "Trust me" pleas of those who have openly revealed their goals that go far beyond "moderate."

    KAM
    Perhaps, but certainly if that path is such a bad thing for most people certainly they will turn away if the first step is not satisfactory, no?
  15. #2715  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Liberals are so gullible because they live in a world that doesn't really exist.
    I think if you look at Healthcare in all the other developed nations of the REAL WORLD, you'll find more in common with the health care reform than the existing status quo.
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2716  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Perhaps, but certainly if that path is such a bad thing for most people certainly they will turn away if the first step is not satisfactory, no?
    What makes you think they will be given that choice? As it was pointed out yesterday, these things are designed to be near-impossible to remove, once they've been put in place, which is exactly why this "ram-it-through" and "Trust us" idea is so dangerous.

    I think you know very well, that by the time these things take effect it is too late.

    KAM
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2717  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I think if you look at Healthcare in all the other developed nations of the REAL WORLD, you'll find more in common with the health care reform than the existing status quo.
    The rest of the world isn't the United States, nor do they have our obligations or system of government. Also--a number of theses other "developed nations" are on the verge of collapse as well, with an even less sustainable outlook.

    Can anyone really sit here with a straight face and say that the economic issues (which are headed straight to insolvency) are being addressed or would even POSSIBLY be addressed in any of these bills?

    If this passes you can cheer all you want, but the overall problems are not being solved, and when that bubble bursts...well, let's just pray that somehow it doesn't, because the results will not be good.

    KAM
  18. #2718  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    The rest of the world isn't the United States, nor do they have our obligations or system of government. Also--a number of theses other "developed nations" are on the verge of collapse as well, with an even less sustainable outlook.

    Can anyone really sit here with a straight face and say that the economic issues (which are headed straight to insolvency) are being addressed or would even POSSIBLY be addressed in any of these bills?

    If this passes you can cheer all you want, but the overall problems are not being solved, and when that bubble bursts...well, let's just pray that somehow it doesn't, because the results will not be good.

    KAM
    I think KAM has a very good point here. It's time to stop with Band-aids. A country with a trillion plus yearly deficit is out of time, yesterday.
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #2719  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I think if you look at Healthcare in all the other developed nations of the REAL WORLD, you'll find more in common with the health care reform than the existing status quo.
    The rest of the world includes a whole lot of people who don't have to worry about their own defenses. In fact, it includes more than one country that gets aid from the US. So, here's a thought: let's stop overloading the international gravy train and keep that money here at home! The we can compare apples to apples.
  20. #2720  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The rest of the world includes a whole lot of people who don't have to worry about their own defenses. In fact, it includes more than one country that gets aid from the US. So, here's a thought: let's stop overloading the international gravy train and keep that money here at home! The we can compare apples to apples.
    Holy Cow! Now you're talking.....I'm sooooooo tired of sending money to countries that hate us. Oh sure, Obama has apologized to the world for us, but not even sure that made a dent. They smile at us to keep the money flowing, but behind our backs they cuss us.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton

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