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  1. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2641  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sure. And that's less hypocritical than the republicans claiming that reconciliation should never be used for such a thing when they jammed tax cuts down everyone's throat using the exact same methods? There's hypocrisy on both sides....but one side has the best interests of the people in mind, and not quite as many special interests. Notice I said "quite" as many.
    Actually, the purpose of the Reconciliation process is to manage budgetary issues, and while I do not like it and think it would be better off being gone, Tax issues are budget issues, and that process followed the rules as stated. This health care "reform" goes far beyond budgetary issues alone (unless they gut it completely), and is an illegitimate use of Reconciliation.

    Its likely that this will only be accomplished by having the Presiding officer (Biden) making ludicrous rulings that override the actual process, violating both the letter and spirit of the law.

    Of course, I highly doubt that these pesky legal or Constitutional issue mean much to you. It will however, when the other shoe drops. All this is going to do is turn a fist fight into a gun fight--dragging our entire government lower and lower.

    But hey--who cares right--you get what you want. Go ahead and burn it all down.

    KAM
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2642  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    One has to admit that the reason this process was a mess is because of the Republican strategy of OBSTRUCT AT ALL COSTS. And yes, I'm saying trust us, it will be great. Just preventing the denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions will be a major improvement.
    Yes, I understand that is the propaganda stance of the Democrats. Of course, the FACT is that this was not even possible until Brown was elected. I know, these pesky fact are a problem. The fact is Democrats lost their will, due to popular opposition, and it only passed as far as it did with massive amounts of bribery.

    This all went ahead, specifically cutting Republicans out of the process (specifically in the house) and with a determined Partisan course. That is what CREATED opposition. I know liberals aren't big on responsibility, but actions do have consequences--and opposition is the result of some of the most partisan Congressional Leadership we've ever had (and that's saying something). Of course, President Obama broke numerous promises and let his allies do the dirty work.

    Addressing Pre-existing conditions is a good thing, highly dependent on HOW they do that of course. If it comes down to simply saying "ignore them" then you've created a disaster--for everyone.

    I'm guessing that someone also said:
    "Trust us--this social security will be great."
    "Trust us, this Medicare will be Great."
    "Trust us, Medicaid will be Great."
    "War on Poverty--trust us, it will be great."

    How's all that been going? Oh right--headed straight for insolvency, and bankrupting the country. And of course, despite all these wonderful government promises, the problems are never solved are they? Your "just a little more" promises are a horrible, horrible joke on the American people.

    So, yes, the country has heard all this drivel before--and yet here we are, once again in a disastrous situation--a "crisis" in fact--all under these wonderful programs that drag the economy down step by step, making it HARDER for the average working person to get along.
    Yes, it is quite the wonderful situation that we find ourselves in "trusting" that it will all be ok.

    All that this is going to accomplish is to crush what little trust the people have left in their government. Congratulations. I hope you've got something left to enjoy.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 03/03/2010 at 02:50 PM.
  3. #2643  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I'm guessing that someone also said:
    "Trust us--this social security will be great."
    "Trust us, this Medicare will be Great."
    "Trust us, Medicaid will be Great."
    "War on Poverty--trust us, it will be great."
    Why has not a single soul tried to take away people's Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid? Because they are great, in their own way. They're not perfect, and the fact that people are living much longer than in generations past has caused a financial issue, but we've seen dozens of examples of Tea Party / Town Hall folks exclaiming that the government "better not let their government-run health care interfere with my Medicare".
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2644  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Why has not a single soul tried to take away people's Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid? Because they are great, in their own way. They're not perfect, and the fact that people are living much longer than in generations past has caused a financial issue, but we've seen dozens of examples of Tea Party / Town Hall folks exclaiming that the government "better not let their government-run health care interfere with my Medicare".
    Well, that's very simple--our politicians are cowards, and the few who aren't are badly outnumbered.
    Second--people ARE dependent on these things now--the plan has worked very well.

    "Great in their own way." Well, actually, I'm going to agree with you here--for people who get "free" healthcare and "retirement" pay, I'm quite sure it is great--compared to not having it that is. Unfortunately, the costs that are associated with this "greatness" do their own damage, and in fact are headed towards insolvency.

    Its a little bit like being a drug addict--it might be slowly killing you, but you still want or even need it. It doesn't mean its a good thing.

    Your last line there reminds me of something from Futurama. The episode involved these jumps in time, and these guys were standing on the street yelling "End Social Security" or something like that, and then a time jump occurs (they age) and they then say "We deserve Free Money!"

    Medicare is a third-rail issue, when Republicans wanted to cut the increases (not cut) in the mid 90's Democrats engaged in a smear campaign against them--which worked well. Now, with the talk about cutting Medicare, the Republicans are saying "don't cut our seniors benefits." Both are full of it in my view--and that's the real lesson--don't trust politicians beyond what you can hold them to.

    Most people are more than happy to accept government handouts...as long as it benefits them. It's not a principled position.

    KAM
  5. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2645  
    Hello Everyone,

    Here's another article talking about health care costs--related to patients having a more involved role (towards a free market).

    Could price tags save American health care? - The Curious Capitalist - TIME.com

    KAM
  6. #2646  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You are right--these things are almost impossible to get rid of--because they create dependency--which is of course the best outcome for politicians. They BUY people. They buy their vote, their liberty--and all with someone else's money. It's a brilliant and extremely deceptive plan, and of course horribly destructive to a free society. But hey--who cares, right?

    KAM
    All I care about is that people have the health care they deserve. And this is the only way they will get it, because the other party has made clear over the years that they will not address it at all. It may not be the way I would choose, but they will have it anyway. And that is what I care about. Not the evils of big government, not the horrors of paying more taxes, not the sweetheart deals that are a part of legislative culture no matter what party or bill you're talking about. That's what I care about, and in this case, the end justifies the means. Your concerns are actually of little interest to me, since they are strictly your opinions and not based on any kind of factual analysis. Horribly destructive? Manure.
  7. piaband's Avatar
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    #2647  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    All I care about is that people have the health care they deserve. And this is the only way they will get it, because the other party has made clear over the years that they will not address it at all. It may not be the way I would choose, but they will have it anyway. And that is what I care about. Not the evils of big government, not the horrors of paying more taxes, not the sweetheart deals that are a part of legislative culture no matter what party or bill you're talking about. That's what I care about, and in this case, the end justifies the means. Your concerns are actually of little interest to me, since they are strictly your opinions and not based on any kind of factual analysis. Horribly destructive? Manure.
    VERY well said. Last time we tried healthcare reform was when clinton was in office. What happened during 8 years under Bush? Nothing. And look where that got us. the worst economic crisis since the great depression.

    I dont think republicans have much room to say what is good for the economy at this point.
  8. Micael's Avatar
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       #2648  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Seriously, I think once these changes are in place most reasonable people will see they're improvements for most everyone and not the socialist-bogey-man certain factions have made it out to be.
    What about the tax-you-to-oblivion-bogey-man and the insurance-companies-are-shutting-down-so-now-you're-out-of-a-job-bogey-man?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2649  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    All I care about is that people have the health care they deserve. And this is the only way they will get it, because the other party has made clear over the years that they will not address it at all. It may not be the way I would choose, but they will have it anyway. And that is what I care about. Not the evils of big government, not the horrors of paying more taxes, not the sweetheart deals that are a part of legislative culture no matter what party or bill you're talking about. That's what I care about, and in this case, the end justifies the means. Your concerns are actually of little interest to me, since they are strictly your opinions and not based on any kind of factual analysis. Horribly destructive? Manure.
    Nonsense--I deal with facts related to this issue all the time. You literally just can't seem to deal with that in a rational way, so you literally deny anything and everything that doesn't agree with you--excepting of course whatever fragment you latch onto for your straw-man arguments. That would explain why your responses tend to be so off-base. I thought it was reading comprehension, but perhaps you literally do not see them.

    Of course, this factually laughable accusation is especially hilarious coming from someone openly announcing that they just don't care about the realities of the issue--just providing healthcare. It is chilling to consider that someone can be so willfully ignorant.

    Yes, I know that's all you care about--which is why listening to people like you, who live in denial of ALL the other issues are so wildly dangerous. You can pretend all you like that "the end justifies the means" in whatever ivory tower you reside in, but the rest of us have to deal with all these others issue that you so conveniently ignore.

    I guess you are just so small-minded that you simply cannot accept that other views exist that disagree with you, and as such you pretend that there are no facts behind any of it. Its a wonderful fantasy you've woven for yourself where with the snap of your fingers, reality becomes what you want it to be--just because you say so.

    You don't deal with ideas, facts or opinions contrary to yours in a rational manner, you instead simply characterize them all as invalid, relying on your position as a doctor to sustain your proclamations.

    What you might find out, is that "my" concerns are not just mine, but those shared by many more common American citizens who are becoming more and more tired of a government that believes it rules over us, instead of serves us. Then again, perhaps people will just settle for this as they tend to do. Only the future will tell that I guess.

    You had better hope that your cavalier attitude towards real issues are somehow resolved, because I am quite sure that the alternative will make this "crisis" look like a picnic.

    And lastly--my concerns are of little interest. Yes, you prove that every time you respond to my posts.

    KAM
  10. #2650  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What about the tax-you-to-oblivion-bogey-man and the insurance-companies-are-shutting-down-so-now-you're-out-of-a-job-bogey-man?
    Don't believe this shuts down any insurance companies that I'm aware of.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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       #2651  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Don't believe this shuts down any insurance companies that I'm aware of.
    Really... first you've heard of it? Just a silly scare tactic of the right?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2652  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    What about the tax-you-to-oblivion-bogey-man and the insurance-companies-are-shutting-down-so-now-you're-out-of-a-job-bogey-man?
    If and when those things happen, you can just rest assured--its for the good of the Country. YOU sacrifice. After all--brilliant minds like Davidra declare that the ends justify the means--so its all ok.

    Also--don't worry, if you do lose your job, that number will just be hidden by some utterly nonsensical claim of another job "saved or created." No one will ever know--feels awesome doesn't it?

    Seriously--best wishes that things turn out ok for you. If not--just go stay at Davidra's house, I'm sure he's be happy to put you up. Anything in the name of Healthcare "reform" right.

    After all, the Ends Justify the means. Better yet--why don't we just kill all the rich people and take their money and use that to pay for healthcare. Just confiscate their property, and perhaps send their children to work camps.

    Nothing else matters--as long as we can provide more healthcare (no worried about how many people will LOSE health care). After all--the ends justify the means.

    KAM
  13. #2653  
    hey Kam, i have to ask, do you support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
  14. #2654  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Really... first you've heard of it? Just a silly scare tactic of the right?
    Show me a Public Option and then I would agree there's a threat to insurance companies.

    Otherwise you would have to educate me on how making Health Insurance mandatory is a threat to the health insurance industry.
  15. #2655  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Actually, the free market DOES work--pretty much every time it is tried. We are already being pillaged--and it isn't under a free market system in regards to healthcare. It is a highly MANIPULATED system--already involving government.

    I'm not sure what is unclear about this. The US government is heavily involved in the healthcare system, and in cooperation with insurance companies led us to where we are today. They have established this manipulated system which is pillaging us.

    Free market practices are not in effect, or more accurately very effectively blocked in most cases. Test cases that increase free market forces have proven to be effective. (as referenced in the link I had a while back--here is is again: Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com)

    This sort of thing IS the viable alternative, that is working to the extent it is allowed, and will work even better if we allow it to.

    By the way--the GOVERNMENT is the one who supposedly paid the $5000 for a hammer or toilet seat or whatever. In the free market that simply will not happen.

    KAM
    i do agree free market does work pretty much of the time, hmmmm ummm something wrong there, pretty much of the time, hmmm i am not sure i want to be the one its tested on. to me that smacks of ya this new fangled accelerator and braking system works pretty much of the time, hmmm toyota and now gm have found out otherwise hmmmm..
    yes the GOVERNMENT supposedly paid for it, but it was a big corp who billed it in the first place. for one i can see ok someone in data entry screwed up. but if memory serves, there was quite a number of them. lemme guess same data entry clerk...
    the free market system has one giant flaw. its called people/greed.
  16. #2656  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Nonsense--I deal with facts related to this issue all the time. You literally just can't seem to deal with that in a rational way, so you literally deny anything and everything that doesn't agree with you--excepting of course whatever fragment you latch onto for your straw-man arguments. That would explain why your responses tend to be so off-base. I thought it was reading comprehension, but perhaps you literally do not see them.

    Of course, this factually laughable accusation is especially hilarious coming from someone openly announcing that they just don't care about the realities of the issue--just providing healthcare. It is chilling to consider that someone can be so willfully ignorant.

    Yes, I know that's all you care about--which is why listening to people like you, who live in denial of ALL the other issues are so wildly dangerous. You can pretend all you like that "the end justifies the means" in whatever ivory tower you reside in, but the rest of us have to deal with all these others issue that you so conveniently ignore.

    I guess you are just so small-minded that you simply cannot accept that other views exist that disagree with you, and as such you pretend that there are no facts behind any of it. Its a wonderful fantasy you've woven for yourself where with the snap of your fingers, reality becomes what you want it to be--just because you say so.

    You don't deal with ideas, facts or opinions contrary to yours in a rational manner, you instead simply characterize them all as invalid, relying on your position as a doctor to sustain your proclamations.

    What you might find out, is that "my" concerns are not just mine, but those shared by many more common American citizens who are becoming more and more tired of a government that believes it rules over us, instead of serves us. Then again, perhaps people will just settle for this as they tend to do. Only the future will tell that I guess.

    You had better hope that your cavalier attitude towards real issues are somehow resolved, because I am quite sure that the alternative will make this "crisis" look like a picnic.

    And lastly--my concerns are of little interest. Yes, you prove that every time you respond to my posts.

    KAM
    Actually, you provide no facts whatsoever. What's interesting is that you don't recognize that. You link to opinion articles and provide no data. None.

    And you can expound all you want about me in my ivory tower. In fact, you are the one that doesn't face the realities of the situation. I do. I do in my clinics every week, when people are dying because I can't refer them to anyone because they don't have insurance, or don't control their hypertension because they can't afford their medicines. You're the one who is "removed" from people that live this problem every day. You're the elitist, the one who bases your reality on some flawed pyschosocial philosophy that is NOT accepted by the majority of the country. You go on and be as paranoid as you want while those people that actually care and deal with these issues every day go ahead and fix things for you. The fact is simple: you know nothing about the reality of the situation.
  17. #2657  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    After all, the Ends Justify the means. Better yet--why don't we just kill all the rich people and take their money and use that to pay for healthcare. Just confiscate their property, and perhaps send their children to work camps.

    Nothing else matters--as long as we can provide more healthcare (no worried about how many people will LOSE health care). After all--the ends justify the means.

    KAM
    Nobody will lose healthcare if everyone is covered. This is a great example of your absurd hyperbole and lack of reality. Pefect. You have shown us exactly how realistic you are.
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2658  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    hey Kam, i have to ask, do you support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
    Yes.

    KAM
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2659  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Nobody will lose healthcare if everyone is covered. This is a great example of your absurd hyperbole and lack of reality. Pefect. You have shown us exactly how realistic you are.
    Yes, this unsustainable economic situation that you proudly, and stupidly dismiss, saying you don't care about it, is REALITY, genius. You might have delved so deep into your fantasy that you can't understand these REAL issues, but they in fact remain real.

    Being accused of being unrealistic by someone so deeply engaged in willful ignorance and denial is like a badge of honor.


    KAM
  20. #2660  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Yes, this unsustainable economic situation that you proudly, and stupidly dismiss, saying you don't care about it, is REALITY, genius. You might have delved so deep into your fantasy that you can't understand these REAL issues, but they in fact remain real.

    Being accused of being unrealistic by someone so deeply engaged in willful ignorance and denial is like a badge of honor.


    KAM
    Your reality is suggesting that those that favor providing health care to people are suggesting that all rich people be killed. Since that's what you said, I assume that is your reality. So by all means, wear your badge. See if you can find the pointed hat that goes with it. And spend some time re-reading what your Canadian friend said. Ask him how many rich people in Canada have been murdered in the name of health care. Really....you should give it up until you mature and educate yourself.

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