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  1. KAM1138
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    #2541  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    What you mean that the dems still having control of both house and senate and the presidency? Ya, I'll be enjoying my november.
    No--I'm referring to your "riding the disease" statement that is likely to go opposite what you fantasize about (regardless of who ends up with the majority), and also a wonderful demonstration of your rabid bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Its not right because repubs dont agree that they force nothing to happen. Its not right when bigots in power want the black pres not to succeed. Its a real shame what has gone on since we now have a president who desires to actually helping us. We now have a senate incapable of letting him help us.
    I find your views to be laughably simplistic...and inaccurate. Your level of slavish devotion is what allows government officials to keep harming this country.

    But the Senate is incapable of "letting him help us." Oh, what a poor little victim you are of...oh that's right, an election. Weren't you the one just spouting off about how the people elected Democrats to pass this? Well, what does it mean when they elect a Republican who specifically ran on being the vote to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Its so nice to have a president not call it nucular. Its been so nice having a president who isnt on a 4 year vacation. Its been so nice having optimism about where our country can go. Now we just need to rid ourselves of the bigots on the right.
    Well, with that blistering analysis, what else is there to say? Wow, you've really added some "substance" to this discussion now.

    Keep on keeping on little bird.

    KAM
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2542  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Sounds like u watch fox news all day and night. Probly have naked pics of glen beck holding AK-47's over your bed.

    No, its going forward. Dems have tried too hard to please repubs. Theyve decided its time to go forward with helping the american people.
    You're making more sense all the time. Tell me more.

    KAM
  3. piaband's Avatar
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    #2543  
    Dems may lose seats over the healthcare legislation, but its not becaue its a bad bill..Its because the repubs have made it out to be the antichrist. They prey on your fears and you dont know how to look at the FACTS. Youre a sheep.

    The legislation is sound. It will help americans, american people, american businesses, the american economy. Its a good bill.

    Dems may lose a few seats, but they'll still control the arena. At least they dont have to flat out lie to get voted. Atleast they arent going out of their way to hurt us to get voted. I'm standing on the side thats standing up for me. Thats the dems. You can stay on the side of wall street, the side of big business. Just dont be surprised when the side of business screws you over to make a little bit more profit.
  4. piaband's Avatar
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    #2544  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You're making more sense all the time. Tell me more.

    KAM
    I know, its embarassing when you get worked by a liberal. We're all so nice, but when our FACTS embarass you, its hard to take. Its ok. We know where we stand.
  5. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2545  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Dems may lose seats over the healthcare legislation, but its not becaue its a bad bill..Its because the repubs have made it out to be the antichrist. They prey on your fears and you dont know how to look at the FACTS. Youre a sheep.

    The legislation is sound. It will help americans, american people, american businesses, the american economy. Its a good bill.

    Dems may lose a few seats, but they'll still control the arena. At least they dont have to flat out lie to get voted. Atleast they arent going out of their way to hurt us to get voted. I'm standing on the side thats standing up for me. Thats the dems. You can stay on the side of wall street, the side of big business. Just dont be surprised when the side of business screws you over to make a little bit more profit.
    A Sheep, yes of course, Dems stand up for you, I'm on the side of wall street, and big business. I hear you--just taking it all in--writing it all down in fact. Please continue. I want to make sure that everyone gets to listen to your wisdom, and has an opportunity to agree with you. It's about time I changed my ways after all. I deserve it--go ahead and take your shots, I won't resist. It's not every day that someone gets the chance to hear such refreshing new ideas--each more substantive than the last.

    I'm not sure why I couldn't see it before.
    KAM
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2546  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    I know, its embarassing when you get worked by a liberal. We're all so nice, but when our FACTS embarass you, its hard to take. Its ok. We know where we stand.
    Yes, of course its clear you know EXACTLY where you stand. But now, since you've done such a good job of rationally laying our all of your facts, I can join with you! I can become just like you--one of the REALLY smart people. I too can be a liberal, and demonstrate my wonderful command of the facts--like you are! But only if you help me to understand.

    Is there anything else I need to own up to? Or ask forgiveness for? Maybe something relating to Global Warming?

    Should I start talking with the Pronoun "We" too? Or do I have to understand more liberal thinking first before I can do that? Let me just give it a try...will you let me? PLEASE? Ok, I'm sure since we are on the same side now, you will let me.

    "We" think this is very interesting what you...oh, wait, or is that "We" are saying.

    And yes, I am that bored.

    KAM
  7. piaband's Avatar
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    #2547  
    ok, finally. it only took half a day to get one of you to come around. Now I only need to get the rest. Bring them here, I will sway them also.
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2548  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    ok, finally. it only took half a day to get one of you to come around. Now I only need to get the rest. Bring them here, I will sway them also.
    You know what made the difference--the SUBSTANCE of your argument. You know--how you addressed the actual points that the old me...or, should I say old "We" stated. You know...back there where you talked about Substance, and then repeated that "sheep" thing and talked about how awesome the Democrats are, and how diseased the Republicans are...wait, is that what it was?

    So...wait, Republicans are diseased, so they need healthcare right? So, you're really trying to CURE them! That will help them! Are you sure you are with we?

    KAM
  9. piaband's Avatar
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    #2549  
    good point. Repubs need the healthcare legislation too. I forgot about them. whew. thanks for reminding me.
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2550  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    good point. Repubs need the healthcare legislation too. I forgot about them. whew. thanks for reminding me.
    We are now confused. We thought you said: Lets rid ourselves of the disease that is the republican party.

    But then, you want to give them healthcare! We are sure that you aren't contradicting yourself. OR, perhaps you are even more clever than We think, and by giving them your free health care, you can make them like we? That must be it.

    Whatever, you just tell we what to think. It's easier on me. I've really got to thank you--being a liberal is a lot easier than not. We think this is awesome!

    I'm a bit sad though--your responses are getting shorter, and I'm sure there are more wrong ideas in that crazy old head of mine. To really be like you, I need to purge all of that information and fill it up with whatever substance makes you to cool. Is there like a cool hangout where you can be told these substantive things to think? We'd be up for that.

    KAM
  11. piaband's Avatar
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    #2551  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    We are now confused. We thought you said: Lets rid ourselves of the disease that is the republican party.

    But then, you want to give them healthcare! We are sure that you aren't contradicting yourself. OR, perhaps you are even more clever than We think, and by giving them your free health care, you can make them like we? That must be it.

    Whatever, you just tell we what to think. It's easier on me. I've really got to thank you--being a liberal is a lot easier than not. We think this is awesome!

    I'm a bit sad though--your responses are getting shorter, and I'm sure there are more wrong ideas in that crazy old head of mine. To really be like you, I need to purge all of that information and fill it up with whatever substance makes you to cool. Is there like a cool hangout where you can be told these substantive things to think? We'd be up for that.

    KAM
    Ya, its called Washington DC. I know itll be hard to rid yourself of the misinformation youve been getting, but its worth it. The truth is so much more rewarding.
  12. rfceo's Avatar
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    #2552  
    What is really broken is Government.
    The way it was intended by our founding fathers was that when an elected official was voted into office they were to represent everyone from their home district. Not just one party. The division of government we have now is ridiculous, may as well be the north and the south. They act like a bunch of children, maybe they all need to be sent on a permanent recess, and start fresh.
    If they actually cared about the folks back in their districts we would not be in the current mess. Banks doing what ever they want, giving bad mortgages. Big financial wizards absconding with billions of peoples investments. Insurance companies out of control. Millions and millions of jobs moved overseas. Telecommunications companies getting what they want, which will only put the US further behind in communications technology, while being the highest priced.
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2553  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    Ya, its called Washington DC. I know itll be hard to rid yourself of the misinformation youve been getting, but its worth it. The truth is so much more rewarding.
    Wait, you hang out in DC. SWEEEET! You are totally connected! No, its not hard at all--all I had to do is stop thinking and listen to you.

    Be sure you get your friends in here to agree with everything you've said too, because now that We've come over to your way of thinking, we totally need a group to keep me going. You did a great job on your own, but I know We can't do it on our own.

    So...will my life be getting better soon? I mean, I'm on your side now. Democrats are in control of government...when does the awesomeness promised start. I'm totally going to dump my health insurance too. I was totally missing the point--that its a right. No one can deny me my rights man, so why bother paying right? We've totally been suckered all these years paying those big-business types all that money--for what? I've got a Right to it! They can't keep it from we.

    KAM
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #2554  
    Just a reminder. Let's keep it civil guys!
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2555  
    Quote Originally Posted by rfceo View Post
    What is really broken is Government.
    The way it was intended by our founding fathers was that when an elected official was voted into office they were to represent everyone from their home district. Not just one party. The division of government we have now is ridiculous, may as well be the north and the south. They act like a bunch of children, maybe they all need to be sent on a permanent recess, and start fresh.
    I agree with this sentiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfceo View Post
    If they actually cared about the folks back in their districts we would not be in the current mess. Banks doing what ever they want, giving bad mortgages. Big financial wizards absconding with billions of peoples investments. Insurance companies out of control. Millions and millions of jobs moved overseas. Telecommunications companies getting what they want, which will only put the US further behind in communications technology, while being the highest priced.
    Actually, government had a hand in these "bad mortgages"--encouraging (some might say threatening) banks to give them, and then enabling it with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Essentially, they said "go ahead--give those bad loans, we will take them off your hands." And they did...and they failed, and now we are on the hook for billions upon billons at the Fannie and Freddie.

    There is all sorts of Crony capitalism going on, and that's a big problem.

    The bottom line--Government doesn't act as the voice of the people--they act like a separate entity that rules the people by its own power, forgetting that they have no power that isn't derived from us. It's past due they get a very firm reminder of this.

    Of course this is very difficult when you've got rabid idiots drinking the flavor-aid of their and mindlessly attacking the opposite side--in effect happily playing the game that benefits politicians.

    KAM
  16. #2556  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Hey there davidra....the sleeping giant has been awakened! Good to "see" you back. As to the above statement, at least you are finally admitting there are simply some not so good doctors out there. Actually, she isn't a bad doctor, she was simply looking out for her and recommending a test that would do that. That goes back to the tort reform issue that you liberals are so against. As a physician, I don't see why you don't recognize that, but, whatever. As for the medication, I think we are in agreement, sort of. I should be able to get the $85 medication if I want it, but, it should be something that if the generic will do just as well (it seems to be doing the job!) I should be willing to pay the difference for the higher cost medication. That way, it isn't costing the healthcare system any more, just me the user.



    As for comparing Medicare reimbursements to private insurance reimbursement, I will have to defer to you on that one as I will admit that I have no idea if the 2 are the same. As a doctor, you would see that before me, but I have never heard that Medicare reimbursement rates are the same as private reimbursements. That would make little sense since I do know that these contracts are negotiated. If an insurance company can bring a larger number of patients to the table, they can negotiate a lower rate vs another insurance company who doesn't have as many patients. So, that wouldn't make sense if they were negotiating the same reimbursement as Medicare.

    As for the other part of your comment regarding specialists, I have no problem bringing what they charge down. But, I don't believe that should be the job of the government. That is simply a fundamental difference that you and I have that I don't see either of us changing our opinions on. You believe the government is the answer to everything, and I believe in limiting the government. We just disagree on that.
    For the thousandth time I'm not against tort reform. I just agree with most people who know something about it, and look at Texas, where they have tort reform and it has done nothing. It will not have any kind of significant effect whatsoever. But I'm not opposed to it and never have been.

    So given there is general agreement that there are too many subspecialists and too few generalists, but subspecialists make a lot more money than generalists and the percentage of doctors choosing careers as subspecialists is continuing to go up, how would you propose that we make careers in primary care more appealing? Market forces? That doesn't work. What happens when you put more cardiologists into a defined area is that you get more cardiology procedures performed, and in general there is no evidence that the health of the population increases. In fact, it can clearly decrease the health, as in Redding, California, where doctors were convicted of performing inappropriate cardiology procedures. Redding

    The only way to change workforce is by changing reimbursement. And without someone saying this is the way it should be, that won't happen. And guess what? Insurance companies aren't going to do that until Medicare does, so go ahead and blame that on the government as well.

    And I defy you to find anywhere where I have suggested there aren't bad doctors. Look at that link if you want proof. Your doctor didn't need to cover anything....she just needed to document why she didn't order a procedure. Even without tort reform, she almost certainly would have been fine. The big misconception is that with tort reform she would have felt better about not doing it....next time you see her, ask her about that. If she's honest, she probably will say it didn't really have anything to do with it.
  17. #2557  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Come up with a better proposal.
    Real simple. EVERYONE gets a high deductible plan. Your deductible will be 10% of what your yearly income is. That'll reduce frivolous waste, when your paying for the 'small' things out of pocket. You'll shop around, negotiate prices, and decide that maybe you don't need that MRI for your minor backache if your going to be paying for it....

    People spend more on their Automobile per year than they spend on health care costs. People spend more on going out to eat than they spend on health care costs. Should government pay for our cars (well, they kinda did with cash for clunkers). Should government pay for us to eat out? Why is health care any more of a right?
  18. RPFTW's Avatar
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    #2558  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Come up with a better proposal.
    Check out this 45min episode that goes through an awesome solution for the health care situation.

    Hulu - Stossel: Thu, Dec 17, 2009 - Watch the full episode now.
  19. #2559  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    For the thousandth time I'm not against tort reform. I just agree with most people who know something about it, and look at Texas, where they have tort reform and it has done nothing. It will not have any kind of significant effect whatsoever. But I'm not opposed to it and never have been.
    Davidra....I will try and remember you are okay with Tort Reform, my bad. Sometimes hard to remember who is for or against what in here. I found this interesting article. It looks at both sides of the argument. There are some studies that put savings at around $210 billion, and another study that says it would only be between $28 and $50 billion. We won't even split the difference, let's just say the savings could be $100 billion. Why not save $100 billion? I realize $100 billion isn't what it used to be, but heck, it at least is a start, right? Here is the article: National Journal Online - Health Care Push Revives Tort Reform Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    So given there is general agreement that there are too many subspecialists and too few generalists, but subspecialists make a lot more money than generalists and the percentage of doctors choosing careers as subspecialists is continuing to go up, how would you propose that we make careers in primary care more appealing? Market forces? That doesn't work. What happens when you put more cardiologists into a defined area is that you get more cardiology procedures performed, and in general there is no evidence that the health of the population increases. In fact, it can clearly decrease the health, as in Redding, California, where doctors were convicted of performing inappropriate cardiology procedures. Redding

    The only way to change workforce is by changing reimbursement. And without someone saying this is the way it should be, that won't happen. And guess what? Insurance companies aren't going to do that until Medicare does, so go ahead and blame that on the government as well.
    Again, not sure it is the government's role to decide where anyone should or shouldn't make money in a legal profession. If there is a huge need for plastic surgeons, then I don't think the government should be stepping in and trying to eliminate this "need". I won't argue that there will be a need for Primary Care doctors, but I again don't think the government should "require" medical students to go into this area. I guess we'll have to disagree on this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And I defy you to find anywhere where I have suggested there aren't bad doctors. Look at that link if you want proof. Your doctor didn't need to cover anything....she just needed to document why she didn't order a procedure. Even without tort reform, she almost certainly would have been fine. The big misconception is that with tort reform she would have felt better about not doing it....next time you see her, ask her about that. If she's honest, she probably will say it didn't really have anything to do with it.
    I will ask her when I go in for my physical in April.
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  20. #2560  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Davidra....I will try and remember you are okay with Tort Reform, my bad. Sometimes hard to remember who is for or against what in here. I found this interesting article. It looks at both sides of the argument. There are some studies that put savings at around $210 billion, and another study that says it would only be between $28 and $50 billion. We won't even split the difference, let's just say the savings could be $100 billion. Why not save $100 billion? I realize $100 billion isn't what it used to be, but heck, it at least is a start, right? Here is the article: National Journal Online - Health Care Push Revives Tort Reform Debate



    Again, not sure it is the government's role to decide where anyone should or shouldn't make money in a legal profession. If there is a huge need for plastic surgeons, then I don't think the government should be stepping in and trying to eliminate this "need". I won't argue that there will be a need for Primary Care doctors, but I again don't think the government should "require" medical students to go into this area. I guess we'll have to disagree on this as well.



    I will ask her when I go in for my physical in April.
    There is abundant literature on the failure of tort reform in Texas. Malpractice premiums dropped a total of around 1% after implementing the most restrictive tort reform in the country. If you don't control the insurance companies, and force them to lower their malpractice costs, then you get nowhere.

    Failure of tort reform

    Failure #2

    I am not suggesting at all that the "big bad government" require people to go into anything. What I am saying is that if Medicare, for example, paid physicians who work in rural areas the same amount as they pay for those working in urban areas, and if they pay primary care doctors a little more and specialists a little less, that will affect the market. It happened in the early '90s when HMO's instituted a gatekeeper system. At that point in time there were surgeons who were looking to get certified in primary care because there were more jobs available....and that had nothing to do with the government, it had to do with private managed care/employer philosophies. What happened? That is the only time in the past 50 years when the percentage of GDP for health care leveled off. I have posted that graph before. Then what happened? The population decided they wouldn't accept that (think Helen Hunt's scene about her asthmatic kid in "As Good as it Gets") and so HMO's decreased their "management" and health care costs went right back to their increases. It is clear how to manage cost increases....manage care. And that can be done by government, or by private insurers, but it's the population that has to change their expectations. They may not be able to go see an orthopedist because they want to. They may have to be referred. The problem with private insurers overseeing this is that they still have a profit motive, and they have shown time and time again that they will deny care unless carefully controlled.

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