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  1. #2461  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yeah... good thing we're not in Europe. But seriously, it's not about parties or wings - Obama is pushing socialist programs.
    You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

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  2. Micael's Avatar
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       #2462  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
    I loved that movie, and you can go on thinking that if you wish
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #2463  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

    ]
    Republicans need little words like that to keep them going... all they know at this point. Because they don't have a point.

    To me it is odd though... even republicans want the same things the dems want... but the republicans want to do it a bit different... but we will end up in the same boat.

    If the republicans increase gov't size and spending, we call it "doing the right thing to keep us safe" but if dems do it, we call it... by that word. lol
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  4. #2464  
    This Thursday "theater" will be such a scam. Republicans gotta go....but seriously....all a show. Another opportunity for Obama to sit there with that stupid grin on his face, his chin up in the air, thinking he is fooling the American people again. Not gonna fly this time....too many Americans are on to his BS.
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  5. #2465  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    This Thursday "theater" will be such a scam. Republicans gotta go....but seriously....all a show. Another opportunity for Obama to sit there with that stupid grin on his face, his chin up in the air, thinking he is fooling the American people again. Not gonna fly this time....too many Americans are on to his BS.
    Funny enough, I don't think obama is full of BS... he is making things happen... much more than Bush.

    Without 911, Bush was a 1 term President. He was on his way out. I will say, he Handled 911... his team put together a plan and executed right on cue... before the dems could respond. It was excellent work. A+

    Obama is making things happen without a 911. If obama has a 911, it will have the opposite effect anyway.
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  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2466  
    Hello Everyone,

    Here's an article about HSAs--and an example of the potential benefits.

    Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com

    Why solutions like this aren't being encouraged is a good question to ask.

    Here's another article talking about similar topics.
    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ce_104597.html

    The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PRPRPR $will$ $lead$ $to$ $more$ $failure$.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 03/01/2010 at 08:42 AM.
  7. #2467  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
    Better the government than for-profit companies.
  8. KAM1138
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    #2468  
    Quote Originally Posted by knobbysideup View Post
    Better the government than for-profit companies.
    Why? At least with private companies you have a choice who you deal with and an arbiter (the government) to appeal to, if you get the shaft.

    Who exactly are you going to appeal to for help if the government gives you the shaft?

    KAM
  9. piaband's Avatar
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    #2469  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Hello Everyone,

    Here's an article about HSAs--and an example of the potential benefits.

    Mitch Daniels: Hoosiers and Health Savings Accounts - WSJ.com

    Why solutions like this aren't being encouraged is a good question to ask.

    Here's another article talking about similar topics.
    RealClearPolitics - The Case for High-Deductible Health Insurance

    The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PRPRPR $will$ $lead$ $to$ $more$ $failure$.

    KAM
    HSA's are great.....if you make enough money for that. HSA's do nothing to lower the cost of insurance.

    Right now the only way to get insurance is

    -Be a bum. yes, bums have free healthcare provided by me and you. its medicaid
    -Be old. Medicare.
    -Have a job that provides it for you (which wont last at current rate of ins. hikes)
    -Make enough money to afford it (private insurance runs a normal person [not family] $1200/month)

    HSA's are not the answer if your goal is to provide affordable healthcare to WORKING AMERICANS making between 30,000-50,000 who dont have employee-sponsored healthcare
  10. kanzlr's Avatar
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    #2470  
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?
    and you really think that is whats happening in Europe?
    The government doesn't decide anything. The insurance companies aren't owned by the government, but by the state. And they don't decide anything. They pay all the treatments that are recommended by the docter, as long as they are on a list of accepted forms of therapy (and basically everything useful is).
  11. piaband's Avatar
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    #2471  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post

    The system we've got now (and what is being suggested is an expansion of that system) has led us to where we are now--which is unsustainable costs. Repeating the same failures and changing to PRPRPR $will$ $lead$ $to$ $more$ $failure$.

    KAM
    How in the world is anything that is being suggested an expansion of our current system? That is a flat out lie. Or you are misinformed.

    1. We dont currently have national healthcare exchanges.
    2. We cant buy insurance across state lines.
    3. We cant do anything if an insurance company drops us the second we need to use it.
    4. Medicare advantage will be abolished. Notice I said medicare ADVANTAGE. This is an unfunded liability that will save us a lot of money.


    If you dont think that is enough, why dont you push your rep to favor the public option?
  12. piaband's Avatar
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    #2472  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Why? At least with private companies you have a choice who you deal with and an arbiter (the government) to appeal to, if you get the shaft.

    Who exactly are you going to appeal to for help if the government gives you the shaft?

    KAM
    A choice? What choice? They have no rules that bind them to anything. do you have a choice when you get cancer and your ins. company drops you because you had acne when you were 16? (preexisting condition). And I'm not kidding....a lady was diagnosed with breast cancer and that was the reason the denied her payments for the surgery. She had to come up with half the cost of the operation. Do you think she has a choice at that point? Only choice is what casket she wants.

    Right now the insurance company tells the doctors what they can and cannot do for you. If they wont pay, the doctor wont do it. What is the focus of insurance companies?....profit. I hate the FACT that the decision on my health/life is decided by someone elses profit. That happens RIGHT NOW.

    What the health insurance reform bills do is to set up laws stating that insurance companies cannot deny payment for things that doctors deem necessary to your health. Hmm, that sounds kind of nice, doesnt it?
  13. #2473  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    HSA's do nothing to lower the cost of insurance.
    I totally disagree with this statement. HSA's force you to pay closer attention to the cost and procedures that are being advised. I know, because I have one and I have saved not only my money, but the insurance company money as well. I was being prescribed a HBP medication and the first one worked fine. I tried some samples for 3 weeks and all was good. When I asked the doctor how much the pills cost (she told me it was a new medication) she said about $85 per month. Well, under the HSA plan that comes directly from my pocket. I asked if there was something else I could try and she had me try a generic HBP medication that had been around for awhile and it worked just fine. The cost? $5.60 per month!

    The second incident occurred when she was going to send me for a thalium stress test (odd EKG prompted this). So, I was cool with that until I found out that it cost over $2100 and was advised to determine if you had a stroke or if there was blockage. I ended up going to a cardiologist and after my 3rd EKG (grrrrrrrrr) and a review of my exercise program (I exercise quite a bit, and am in pretty good shape) he said the thalium stress test was not needed. So, I did have to spend $350 at the cardiologist, but that saved me $1750! No savings?

    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    HSA's are not the answer if your goal is to provide affordable healthcare to WORKING AMERICANS making between 30,000-50,000 who dont have employee-sponsored healthcare
    I will agree with you here, HSA's are not for everyone. But, for folks who can afford to fund the HSA savings element, or if the employer is contributing, or if you have a fair amount of personal savings, it is a very good option. But, if you live paycheck to paycheck, I agree, not the best program. But why take it away from those people who can take advantage of it? It reduced my premiums, and it gives me incentive to ask questions and to "shop" my doctor (I know davidra will hate that some people would dare "shop" a doctor).
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  14. piaband's Avatar
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    #2474  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yeah... good thing we're not in Europe. But seriously, it's not about parties or wings - Obama is pushing socialist programs.
    Lets see here:

    -tax cuts for EVERY working american.
    -spending freeze announced for 2011
    -bipartisan panel on deficit reduction (voted down by republicans)
    -nuclear power plants

    That isnt exactly the calling card of a socialist agenda.

    What I really love is how everyone just throws out "socialist views" without actually stating a single socialist view he has. Because he thinks we all have a right to healthcare? Wow, if you think thats socialist, I'd hate to see what you think of actual socialists, they must be the devils spawn in your mind.
  15. #2475  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    A choice? What choice? They have no rules that bind them to anything. do you have a choice when you get cancer and your ins. company drops you because you had acne when you were 16? (preexisting condition). And I'm not kidding....a lady was diagnosed with breast cancer and that was the reason the denied her payments for the surgery. She had to come up with half the cost of the operation. Do you think she has a choice at that point? Only choice is what casket she wants.

    Right now the insurance company tells the doctors what they can and cannot do for you. If they wont pay, the doctor wont do it. What is the focus of insurance companies?....profit. I hate the FACT that the decision on my health/life is decided by someone elses profit. That happens RIGHT NOW.

    What the health insurance reform bills do is to set up laws stating that insurance companies cannot deny payment for things that doctors deem necessary to your health. Hmm, that sounds kind of nice, doesnt it?
    Wow....so many things to comment on here, but just not enough time. But, having worked in the health insurance field for 25 years, I have never had a client whose coverage was cancelled because of something being diagnosed. Now, I do deal only with the larger insurance carriers, and don't deal with the fly-by-the-night carriers (but the premium is half the cost for better benefits!...bad decision), but have never had a client's plan cancelled because of a diagnosis. Now, I have had coverage cancelled when they didn't pay the premium and when they applied for reinstatement, it was not reinstated because of the health condition. But, the bottom line, the premium was not paid within the 30 day grace period.

    I agree that pre-ex issues need to be resolved, and the only way that can work is mandating everyone have a minimum plan or pay a HEAVY fine. This goes against my normal thinking, and I even believe it is unconstitutional, but, I have no other way to make the waiving of pre-ex work. Otherwise, if someone was smart, they would just sign up for insurance when they were sick and drop it when the illness/injury is done. That would not reduce insurance premiums.
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  16. piaband's Avatar
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    #2476  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I totally disagree with this statement. HSA's force you to pay closer attention to the cost and procedures that are being advised. I know, because I have one and I have saved not only my money, but the insurance company money as well. I was being prescribed a HBP medication and the first one worked fine. I tried some samples for 3 weeks and all was good. When I asked the doctor how much the pills cost (she told me it was a new medication) she said about $85 per month. Well, under the HSA plan that comes directly from my pocket. I asked if there was something else I could try and she had me try a generic HBP medication that had been around for awhile and it worked just fine. The cost? $5.60 per month!

    The second incident occurred when she was going to send me for a thalium stress test (odd EKG prompted this). So, I was cool with that until I found out that it cost over $2100 and was advised to determine if you had a stroke or if there was blockage. I ended up going to a cardiologist and after my 3rd EKG (grrrrrrrrr) and a review of my exercise program (I exercise quite a bit, and am in pretty good shape) he said the thalium stress test was not needed. So, I did have to spend $350 at the cardiologist, but that saved me $1750! No savings?



    I will agree with you here, HSA's are not for everyone. But, for folks who can afford to fund the HSA savings element, or if the employer is contributing, or if you have a fair amount of personal savings, it is a very good option. But, if you live paycheck to paycheck, I agree, not the best program. But why take it away from those people who can take advantage of it? It reduced my premiums, and it gives me incentive to ask questions and to "shop" my doctor (I know davidra will hate that some people would dare "shop" a doctor).

    Very well said. There is obviously a place for this as you stated, but equally obviously is that it is not the answer to the overall cost of health insurance. If it was, everyone would do that, because it is available right now.

    For your second point, you will absolutely, 100% not lose your ability to get the EXACT SAME health insurance you have right now. This will not take away or reduce your ability to buy your HSA savings account or any other insurance anyone else has. What makes you think that?

    I agree that one of the major problems is people arent shopping for doctors the same way they do for everything else. Prices are not readily available for most procedures though. This information is not out in the open where we can cost-compare the same way we do for everything else we buy. It should be though.
  17. piaband's Avatar
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    #2477  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Wow....so many things to comment on here, but just not enough time. But, having worked in the health insurance field for 25 years, I have never had a client whose coverage was cancelled because of something being diagnosed. Now, I do deal only with the larger insurance carriers, and don't deal with the fly-by-the-night carriers (but the premium is half the cost for better benefits!...bad decision), but have never had a client's plan cancelled because of a diagnosis. Now, I have had coverage cancelled when they didn't pay the premium and when they applied for reinstatement, it was not reinstated because of the health condition. But, the bottom line, the premium was not paid within the 30 day grace period.

    I agree that pre-ex issues need to be resolved, and the only way that can work is mandating everyone have a minimum plan or pay a HEAVY fine. This goes against my normal thinking, and I even believe it is unconstitutional, but, I have no other way to make the waiving of pre-ex work. Otherwise, if someone was smart, they would just sign up for insurance when they were sick and drop it when the illness/injury is done. That would not reduce insurance premiums.
    Really? you havent ever heard of someone being dropped from the coverage after being diagnosed with something? did you watch the summit last week? Every single person in the room (dem and repub) started with a story of someone being denied coverage for a pre-ex condition that had nothing to do with their current illness.

    See here: The woman sounds alot like you. I typed healthcare denial into youtube and she was teh 2nd one that came up. These people arent hard to find.

    those arent fly-by-night health insurers either. Those are the big boys.

    What would you do if any of these happened to you? Have some empathy for goodness sake. This is happening all over the country every day. Can you imagine how you would feel if you got sick, there was someone that could help you, but you simply couldnt afford it. And they just dont help you. Not because they dont have time, not because there is no cure, not because you did anything wrong, simply because you cant afford health insurance. wow, what a terrible thought.
    Last edited by piaband; 03/01/2010 at 09:49 AM.
  18. #2478  
    Quote Originally Posted by piaband View Post
    For your second point, you will absolutely, 100% not lose your ability to get the EXACT SAME health insurance you have right now. This will not take away or reduce your ability to buy your HSA savings account or any other insurance anyone else has. What makes you think that?

    I agree that one of the major problems is people arent shopping for doctors the same way they do for everything else. Prices are not readily available for most procedures though. This information is not out in the open where we can cost-compare the same way we do for everything else we buy. It should be though.
    Well, don't make me find the page in the 2400 page docuement, but they want to reduce how much you can put aside into HSA savings accounts. If you reduce that element, it certainly does not make the plan as attractive. So, while they don't eliminate it directly (yet), they certainly don't make it as appealing and therefore it will become less relevant.

    As for pricing, you can get it, but yes, it require effort. Unfortunately, people don't like to put forth effort, they want it handed to them. When I had back surgery, I called in advance and asked whether the anethesiologist was in my network....turns out no. So, I called them up directly and worked out a deal and saved 40%. This took effort, and it saved me and the healthcare system money.

    We might ask devidra why doctors aren't as willing to share how much they charge? There might be a very simple and logical answer....or....maybe they simply don't want us to know?
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  19. kanzlr's Avatar
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    #2479  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Otherwise, if someone was smart, they would just sign up for insurance when they were sick and drop it when the illness/injury is done. That would not reduce insurance premiums.
    you have a point there. see, European plans work completely different.
    you HAVE to be insured at the official public insurance. period. it gets deducted from your paycheque automatically.

    if you want even more benefits, get a private insurance on top of it.
  20. #2480  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Why? At least with private companies you have a choice who you deal with and an arbiter (the government) to appeal to, if you get the shaft.

    Who exactly are you going to appeal to for help if the government gives you the shaft?

    KAM
    Ok, Knobbysideup's solution to healthcare.

    First, what are the problems?
    1. expensive
    2. inefficient
    3. inconsistent

    3 drives 2 which drives 1.

    How to fix?
    1. Stop tying healthcare to companies you work for. Make it illegal. Whether I have affordable coverage, and who is covering me should not be tied to who I work for. My company doesn't have car insurance or home insurance for me, why do they have health insurance? And why should I have to insure my health to begin with?

    2. No more networks. I have insurance, I'm covered. Period. Let the government regulate minimum required coverage. You want competition? Compete on offering MORE for LESS. Why is it every time I go to the doctor, there are twice as many people there working on claims than there are actual healthcare staff??? I don't care if I put claims processors out of a job. It's a bull**** job to begin with.

    3. You don't need electronic histories to drive efficiency. Make it a standard paper form. You fill it out ONCE. If a new doctor requires the information, you give them a copy. Any doctor office should be able to print this and give it to you, which you can then give to any other doctor. They are free to put it in their own databases however they like, but they must accept the standard form. Let's work on efficiency of process before we try to automate and put it into computers, shall we?

    The only other problem left to solve, then, is litigation. This also drives up costs, but is beyond the scope of this rant.

    It's ridiculous that a couple of minutes of a doctor's time costs me $150 with no insurance sometimes! Especially when they don't solve the problem the first time around, and you have to go back. Then there is the issue of Insurance companies actually *CONTROLLING* my healthcare, and not my doctor. How the **** did we get into THAT situation?

    I want to be able to pay my doctor, directly, a reasonable price for solving my health problems (you know, like in every other industry, except law). I want insurance to kick in for serious, long-term, or life-threatening issues. If costs were driven down to reasonable levels, I'd even pay for surgery for broken bones without insurance. But when I broke my ankle, the combined bill was $20,000. ***?

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