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  1. anthillmob's Avatar
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    #2441  
    Quote Originally Posted by darsal View Post
    I can't argue with that. Not because it's so correct, but because even in that short paragraph there's so much wrong that I don't even know where to start. in sequence then:

    1) Yeah, our principles are probably at the core of this debate. One side says if it wasn't verbatim included in a 200+ year old vision statement we can't improve on it, and the other says the word "among" actually means we're required to improve it. Since ours was a country based in hope and change, I find it hard to imagine that "the society we live in" currently is the culmination of the direction we were supposed to go.
    I would argue that one side believes in the principles underlying that 200+ year old document while the other side believe they are flexible if it is for the good of the many.

    2) I can't argue that the roots of our success lie in governmental interference (or not) simply because I reject the premise that we're successful enough to explain ourselves in the first place. On this issue there are at least 46 million people who might disagree with your congratulations, and everyone disagrees with at least some part of our "success", from our tolerance for all religions, our ability to speak freely, our reasonable expectations of privacy, our right to bear arms... Take heart: I agree that our Constitutional reserve of power first to the individuals, then to the various States, and only last to the Federals was a great improvement over the colonial/feudal system of which we were then subjects, but at the same time we were also slave owners and didn't have a standing national military. As soon as we tear down the Pentagon (it would be a great site for a soccer stadium) and disband all branches of military service we can start talking about why we're so successful...
    You lost me at "I reject the premise that we're successful enough to explain ourselves in the first place."

    3) Around some parts we call "changing attitudes of the population" Democracy.
    And in those parts you are wrong.

    It's a good, resilient thing that can a) make good choices, b) make bad choices, and c) fix its own mistakes
    I agree with you there.

    Yep, we'll probably need to fix something else once this is done, but I live in a 130-year old house myself and that's just how it goes.
    I get the feeling you think 130 years is old for a house........ :-).

    4) Wait, whoa - "STATE RUN HEALTHCARE PROGRAM"?!? Maybe that's shorthand for "changes that I don't know how to describe"
    Nope, it is long hand for "STATE RUN HEALTHCARE PROGRAM" I didn't say this would be the immediate effect of any of the currently proposed bills..... but it is clearly the goal of many people.

    5) Double wait-whoa - again with the SOCIALISM strawman? See #3 (et al) above, and anyway"socialized" isn't a synonym for Socialism any more than a country is made up of counts. (That was a much dirtier quip until I spelled it out...)
    hehehe

    The world has about as many wise Socialists as it has altruistic Capitalists. (Not zero, but not enough of them to make a difference...)
    Which is one of the reasons Capitalism "beats" Socialism.... it does not rely upon altruism. However, I disagree with you on how many altruistic capitalists there are.

    7) Regardless of the outcome, I'll proudly point to this period as a sign that we haven't yet lost our way, that we can still debate weighty and important matters as a country and arrive at practical and clever solutions with minimal bloodshed and bonebreak, and if they fall short of our greatest dreams at least they may also fail to reach our darkest fears. I hope you'll join me in that.
    Sure will!
  2. anthillmob's Avatar
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    #2442  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Is it your position that X-million undocumented aliens be removed from the US?
    Hum..... risky question to answer, could get one mislabeled, but what the heck.
    Is it your position that those who have entered the country illegally should not be removed? (sorry to answer a question with a question...)

    Do you support a plan that allows undocumented aliens to acquire citizenship by pathway of meeting requirements, paying penalties, and waiting at the end of the line?
    That would depend upon the specifics of the plan....... but given the people who would be putting such a plan together :-), I am going to go out on a limb and say I would not support it.

    p.s. I find the X-Million quite appropriate, since I am pretty sure nobody has any idea how many there really are!
  3. #2443  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    "I can promise (but would certainly be open to be proven wrong) that you can find no evidence whatsoever that any of the discussed plans would be detrimental to the health care of everyone with insurance. What makes you think that that is the case?"

    Logic and personal experience.

    "Do the restrictions (and denials) that are put on care by many private HMO's and PPO's not count because they are from an insurance company, and therefore they're just fine?"

    Of course they count...... but if you sign up to policy with certain restrictions (presumably tied to the price you pay) then you need to be aware of them.... although I am sure there are plenty of cases which are truly unfair (a weakness with all systems perhaps?).

    "The fact is that better control of excessively used and ineffective tests, for example, will actually improve the quality of care."

    1. I think we differ in our idea of quality of care
    2. This has what to do with the government?

    "I can give you a lot of references if you want them."

    No thanks. Frankly I probably don't have the time to read them and wouldn't agree with them anyway.....

    "Additionally, if you want to talk philosophy, the government has always taken from one to give to another,no matter how you p**** the words."
    This was taken care of by Micael, thanks!

    "The only question is whether health care is different from education and we feel it should be provided, or whether we draw a line at people's health and say we just don't care about that, it's just like having a nice house. It's NOT like having a nice house."

    If you are suggesting that health care is more important than education and therefore if we support education via taxation we should do the same for health care (i.e. where to draw the line). Then my answer is simple...... I think education is very much like health care.... it is something useful to have, some people think it is a right (but it isn't), it seems to cost way more than it delivers and it is clearly in need of reform. Does this mean the solution is more government involvement (and taxpayer money)? NO!

    "You shouldn't have to go bankrupt for an appendectomy."
    Going bankrupt for an appendectomy is bad, but that does not make it right to force somebody else to pay for it.

    "But be clear about the specifics of the case at hand, and don't pretend it's really not about health care at all, but redistribution, or a power grab, or any of the other BS descriptions of health care reform trumpeted by opponents. This is about people's health. Simple."
    And here we come to the crux of the problem. It is not simply about people's health but is rather linked to the principles of the society we live in (and might wish to live in). This country has been successful due to its relatively low level of government interference.... although I appreciate this is changing (a reflection of the changing attitudes of the population no doubt). Because of this, I offer you some hope.... or fear depending on ones view point. If this country continues to move in the direction it is at the moment, it is only a matter of time before there is a state run healthcare program..... why? because socialism might suck in practice, but it sure does feel good as a concept!
    Excuse me if I don't agree that providing care for millions of Americans should be based on your "logic and personal experience". Data would be more useful.

    If you would like to read about quality of care, just do a search for "Donabedian", who has been writing about quality of care for decades. Among professionals there is little disagreement about how to define quality of care, so is there a possibility your definition might be partisan and self-serving? There are some disagreements about the measures, like all the prattling on about how bad the WHO measure of infant birthweight is, which is ridiculous. There are many other measures that show our country is backwards, and I've posted several.

    My references, by and large, are academic. You may not agree with them, but then it's probably a good idea to address why. Measures of quality of care have been developed for a great deal longer than this recent debate about health systems. What I'm saying is that I am biased without at doubt....but articles that published in the scientific literature that are peer reviewed are not quite in the category of drivel that some post on here as being fact.

    And finally, there should be no "but" after the sentence "Going bankrupt after an appendectomy is bad..." but your politics and philosophy have to have that "but" in there, don't they? The fact is that you are wrong, at least as far as I am concerned, because this IS simply about people's health. When your principles have a direct effect on the population's health, I'll be glad to call you out. And that's what's going on, with obstructionists whose primary goal is seeing democrats and Obama fail, and offer no reasonable option to solve the problem in it's entirety. Frankly, I have more respect for DeMint. At least he is honest about what he wants, and the fact that he doesn't really care about what is best for the country. He doesn't hide behind childish socialism posters and semantics, he's right up front. I'm waiting.
    Last edited by davidra; 09/28/2009 at 02:55 PM.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #2444  
    You know, I'm really curious why this hasn't gotten more press in the US. I mean, why would he want to come to get heart surgery in a country with such terrible health care?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2445  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You know, I'm really curious why this hasn't gotten more press in the US. I mean, why would he want to come to get heart surgery in a country with such terrible health care?
    I'm sure its invalid for the same reason that any other incident of unhappiness with government healthcare in other countries is invalid--it doesn't support what proponents of Government healthcare want, thus it is invalid.

    Oh sure--dress that reason up a bit, but that's the core.

    KAM
  6. #2446  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    You know, I'm really curious why this hasn't gotten more press in the US. I mean, why would he want to come to get heart surgery in a country with such terrible health care?
    Well....it has been covered on Fox News. I have wondered why it wasn't brought up in here before now. I thought about it, but decided certain folks would simply say it was just one case, or that the Canadian system is nothing like what we would be going to. Another case of
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

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  7. Micael's Avatar
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       #2447  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Well....it has been covered on Fox News. I have wondered why it wasn't brought up in here before now. I thought about it, but decided certain folks would simply say it was just one case, or that the Canadian system is nothing like what we would be going to. Another case of
    Apparently the procedure he required wasn't even offered in his country? Well I can understand that.... but why the heck didn't he got to Cuba for his operation? I mean, just ask Michael Moore; they have an awesome system there... and FREE!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #2448  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Apparently the procedure he required wasn't even offered in his country? Well I can understand that.... but why the heck didn't he got to Cuba for his operation? I mean, just ask Michael Moore; they have an awesome system there... and FREE!
    Probaby just closer here? Seems like I heard he could get the procedure in his country, but, it would take about 2 months before he could have it done. Not sure why people are so impatient about getting their health procedures done in a timely manner. Good grief....just take it easy, don't do any crazy activities, and just wait for the free coverage. Davidra will tell you that there is no need to rush into such procedures. What good is free coverage if you go running to another country for a procedure. I just hope he paid for it rather than stick it to us Americans.

    Edit: I stand corrected, apparently the procedure was not available in his country. The head of the opposition party says an explanation as to why he needed to go to the US should be given when he recovers (she did wish him well in his recovery). The guys is very wealthy and I guess some question why someone with money can get this procedure while those without money wouldn't have been able to get the same treatment. Gosh, I hope the government isn't controlling what health care can be received.
    Last edited by clemgrad85; 02/08/2010 at 02:39 PM.
    PalmPilot, PalmIIIc, Treo 650, Pre, Pre 3, Nokia 1020, Lumia 950

    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2449  
    Hello Everyone,

    Interesting Article
    RealClearMarkets - Why Washington Can't Reform Healthcare

    Excerpt:
    Healthcare prices are fake, inflexible, and inflated because they are set not by the repeated interactions of buyers and sellers but by opaque acts of collusion between government bureaucrats and special interests. Even if this system were run by a benevolent genius who happened to set prices exactly "right" - whatever that means - these prices would be obsolete the moment they were published.

    This state of affairs has turned the healthcare industry into a staggering zombie. It took several decades for Medicare price setting to swamp the price signals required to keep the market in balance, but we have clearly passed the tipping point. Lacking these signals and the constant corrections they engender, 16% of our economy is flying blind.

    Add insurance to the equation, particularly insurance that the public has been encouraged to think of as free stuff paid for by someone else, and the problem only gets worse.

    Can't we fix these problems by fixing insurance regulations? Contrary to popular belief, insurance companies love regulation. Regulation eliminates both business risk and pesky competitors. "Reforming" the insurance industry is not going to eliminate pricing dysfunctions, although it may eliminate insurance companies.


    This speaks to the nature of the problem that Government has helped create, which has resulted in this "crisis." The solution being proposed--delving deeper into the problem.

    So, whenever someone tells you they are going to "fix" healthcare, by repeating the same mistakes that destroyed it (to the extend it has), remember this, and treat them as the frauds they are.

    KAM
  10. #2450  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    Is it your position that those who have entered the country illegally should not be removed? (sorry to answer a question with a question...)
    I'm not going to say if they should be removed or not, but I will say everyone here should get health care. Its not like having illegal aliens running around not vaccinated and spreading exotic diseases to the general population is good government operating procedure. If they are healthy its good for all of us, let the lawyers decide who stays and goes, its two different issues.
  11. #2451  
    Quote Originally Posted by gilesjp1 View Post
    I'm not going to say if they should be removed or not, but I will say everyone here should get health care. Its not like having illegal aliens running around not vaccinated and spreading exotic diseases to the general population is good government operating procedure. If they are healthy its good for all of us, let the lawyers decide who stays and goes, its two different issues.
    It's not much of a stretch then to say by your logic, we should just "vaccinate" the entire population of the planet. People from other countries visit here on vacation. By your logic we should provide them with care to to prevent our own health issues. To be completely "safe" then we should just take care of anyone they might interact with too i.e the whole planet.
    Is that going to work you think?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  12. kanzlr's Avatar
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    #2452  
    I usually don't participate in political discussions like that, but non-US countries where frequently mentioned, and I thought I tell you how it works here:

    I live in Austria, EU, and we have a more or less government run insurance system. There are various insurance providers, but all owned by the government. Most professions have a dedicated one (like railway personel, farmers, etc.).

    Basically, health insurance is deducted automatically from your income. In Austria, tax + insurance = approx. 50% of your income. I, for example, earn € 3900,-- a month, but only € 2000,-- make it to my bank account, the rest is kept for taxes and insurance (both health and pension).

    While thats a lot, it guarantees that everybody in Austria gets the best possible health care, the hospitals are mostly top notch, and you don't have to pay anything, regardless of it being a cold or cancer. They try to use the cheapest among the best, like using generica where viable. I never needed much support from our health care system, other than refunding costs for glasses and two short stays at the hospital.

    I think it boils down to the mindset. In Europe you seem to care more for the community, and a bit less for the individual.
    Basically, if you stay healthy through all your life, you pay more than you consume, and support those who are less lucky.
    It levels the cost and risk involved with getting ill. Even the most expensive treatment won't destroy your economical life, but you have to pay for that. Thats why it is called insurance.
    Everybody gets it, everybody gets the best treatment, and everybody pays insurance according to his or her income.

    There are private healtcare insurances, but they offer additional services, like always getting your own private room in the hospital, or paying for a doctor of choice if you want a private doctor, they pay you for each day you are sick and can't work, etc. So it is really a dual system, and I love it.

    Basically, you never have to fear not being insured, you always get the best treatment. Maybe it is not fair for the individual, but it is ethical.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #2453  
    Thanks for the perspective, kanzir.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #2454  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Do we really want the government to decide who lives, who dies, and how?

    We'll go from the choice of 100s of healthcare plans to one government one size fits all coverage where some beaurocrat in a basement somewhere decides if your mother gets surgery or pain killers based on a budget and cost savings to the already overburdened tax payers.
    That'll work !! Oh no it doesn't, does it ?? *LOL* only in US. What they have in Hawaii should be mandatory all over the US
  15. #2455  
    Quote Originally Posted by kanzlr View Post
    I usually don't participate in political discussions like that, but non-US countries where frequently mentioned, and I thought I tell you how it works here:

    I live in Austria, EU, and we have a more or less government run insurance system. There are various insurance providers, but all owned by the government. Most professions have a dedicated one (like railway personel, farmers, etc.).

    Basically, health insurance is deducted automatically from your income. In Austria, tax + insurance = approx. 50% of your income. I, for example, earn € 3900,-- a month, but only € 2000,-- make it to my bank account, the rest is kept for taxes and insurance (both health and pension).

    While thats a lot, it guarantees that everybody in Austria gets the best possible health care, the hospitals are mostly top notch, and you don't have to pay anything, regardless of it being a cold or cancer. They try to use the cheapest among the best, like using generica where viable. I never needed much support from our health care system, other than refunding costs for glasses and two short stays at the hospital.

    I think it boils down to the mindset. In Europe you seem to care more for the community, and a bit less for the individual.
    Basically, if you stay healthy through all your life, you pay more than you consume, and support those who are less lucky.
    It levels the cost and risk involved with getting ill. Even the most expensive treatment won't destroy your economical life, but you have to pay for that. Thats why it is called insurance.
    Everybody gets it, everybody gets the best treatment, and everybody pays insurance according to his or her income.

    There are private healtcare insurances, but they offer additional services, like always getting your own private room in the hospital, or paying for a doctor of choice if you want a private doctor, they pay you for each day you are sick and can't work, etc. So it is really a dual system, and I love it.

    Basically, you never have to fear not being insured, you always get the best treatment. Maybe it is not fair for the individual, but it is ethical.
    Oh no not at all. It's just that we're christian. I believe the god of worship i US is Mammon ?
  16. #2456  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Hello Everyone,

    Interesting Article
    RealClearMarkets - Why Washington Can't Reform Healthcare

    Excerpt:
    Healthcare prices are fake, inflexible, and inflated because they are set not by the repeated interactions of buyers and sellers but by opaque acts of collusion between government bureaucrats and special interests. Even if this system were run by a benevolent genius who happened to set prices exactly "right" - whatever that means - these prices would be obsolete the moment they were published.

    This state of affairs has turned the healthcare industry into a staggering zombie. It took several decades for Medicare price setting to swamp the price signals required to keep the market in balance, but we have clearly passed the tipping point. Lacking these signals and the constant corrections they engender, 16% of our economy is flying blind.

    Add insurance to the equation, particularly insurance that the public has been encouraged to think of as free stuff paid for by someone else, and the problem only gets worse.

    Can't we fix these problems by fixing insurance regulations? Contrary to popular belief, insurance companies love regulation. Regulation eliminates both business risk and pesky competitors. "Reforming" the insurance industry is not going to eliminate pricing dysfunctions, although it may eliminate insurance companies.


    This speaks to the nature of the problem that Government has helped create, which has resulted in this "crisis." The solution being proposed--delving deeper into the problem.

    So, whenever someone tells you they are going to "fix" healthcare, by repeating the same mistakes that destroyed it (to the extend it has), remember this, and treat them as the frauds they are.

    KAM
    Geeesss!
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2457  
    Hello Everyone,

    This might be informative when someone talks about European systems.

    RealClearMarkets - The Demise of the European Welfare Nation

    KAM
  18. kanzlr's Avatar
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    #2458  
    btw, it is funny to see Americans describing Obama as socialist.
    Even conservative parties in Europe are usually more leftist than the Democrats. From an European perspective, there are no left wing parties in the US (except maybe the Green party, but they're not really significant yet).
  19. Micael's Avatar
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       #2459  
    'My heart, my choice,' Williams says, defending decision for U.S. heart surgery
    By Tara Brautigam (CP)

    An unapologetic Danny Williams says he was aware his trip to the United States for heart surgery earlier this month would spark outcry, but he concluded his personal health trumped any public fallout over the controversial decision.

    In an interview with The Canadian Press, Williams said he went to Miami to have a "minimally invasive" surgery for an ailment first detected nearly a year ago, based on the advice of his doctors.

    "This was my heart, my choice and my health," Williams said late Monday from his condominium in Sarasota, Fla.

    "I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

    The 60-year-old Williams said doctors detected a heart murmur last spring and told him that one of his heart valves wasn't closing properly, creating a leakage.

    He said he was told at the time that the problem was "moderate" and that he should come back for a checkup in six months.

    Eight months later, in December, his doctors told him the problem had become severe and urged him to get his valve repaired immediately or risk heart failure, he said.

    His doctors in Canada presented him with two options - a full or partial sternotomy, both of which would've required breaking bones, he said.

    He said he spoke with and provided his medical information to a leading cardiac surgeon in New Jersey who is also from Newfoundland and Labrador. He advised him to seek treatment at the Mount Sinai Medical Center in Miami.

    That's where he was treated by Dr. Joseph Lamelas, a cardiac surgeon who has performed more than 8,000 open-heart surgeries.

    Williams said Lamelas made an incision under his arm that didn't require any bone breakage.

    "I wanted to get in, get out fast, get back to work in a short period of time," the premier said.

    Williams said he didn't announce his departure south of the border because he didn't want to create "a media gong show," but added that criticism would've followed him had he chose to have surgery in Canada.

    "I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. ... I accept that. That's public life," he said.

    "(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."

    Williams said his decision to go to the U.S. did not reflect any lack of faith in his own province's health care system.

    "I have the utmost confidence in our own health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador, but we are just over half a million people," he said.

    "We do whatever we can to provide the best possible health care that we can in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian health care system has a great reputation, but this is a very specialized piece of surgery that had to be done and I went to somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week."

    He quipped that he had "a heart of a 40-year-old, so that gives me 20 years new life," and said he intends to run in the next provincial election in 2011.

    "I'm probably going to be around for a long time, hopefully, if God willing," he said.

    "God forbid for the Canadian public I won't be around longer than ever."

    Williams also said he paid for the treatment, but added he would seek any refunds he would be eligible for in Canada.

    "If I'm entitled to any reimbursement from any Canadian health care system or any provincial health care system, then obviously I will apply for that as anybody else would," he said.

    "But I wrote out the cheque myself and paid for it myself and to this point, I haven't even looked into the possibility of any reimbursement. I don't know what I'm entitled to, if anything, and if it's nothing, then so be it."

    He is expected back at work in early March.
    ~~~
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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       #2460  
    Quote Originally Posted by kanzlr View Post
    btw, it is funny to see Americans describing Obama as socialist.
    Even conservative parties in Europe are usually more leftist than the Democrats. From an European perspective, there are no left wing parties in the US (except maybe the Green party, but they're not really significant yet).
    Yeah... good thing we're not in Europe. But seriously, it's not about parties or wings - Obama is pushing socialist programs.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

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