Page 121 of 143 FirstFirst ... 2171111116117118119120121122123124125126131 ... LastLast
Results 2,401 to 2,420 of 2855
  1. #2401  
    Goodness, you do get nasty when people disagree with you!

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yeah, I had forgotten you don't give a damn about them either, do you? How'd you feel about SCHIP? It was passed by a republican congress and a democratic president, and in case you don't know anything about it, it provides low-cost insurance for children that are ineligible for Medicaid but still are at 200% of the federal poverty guidelines. A good example of a bipartisan program that filled in holes for uninsured children. A good example of what we could do if people actually got involved in the process instead of obstructing and rooting for failure for political reasons.

    There, feel better? They're included. And by the way....cynicism about the health of children is unbecoming.
  2. #2402  
    It does not encourage euthanasia - mercy killing. What it does encourage is giving up, doing the right thing for society, the family, et cetera. In other words, it pushes you to accept your own death. No where did I mention anything about euthanasia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    How exactly did I attack you? Underscoring the multiple media outlets who have taken that false argument off the table, 40 times over, is hardly unfair, personal, or unkind.

    Where did I interject "encouraging euthanasia"? The only person to do that was bclinger, and even you had to correct the error of his ways.
  3. #2403  
    And how long does it take for you to get a routine doctor appointment? Routine surgery? Down south in the USA, it is immediate or days. The "done it wrong" thing really has nothing to do with this - it was done in a manner your doctor did not care for. Wrong? Who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    Well up here in the great white north, we have govt health care, as I am sure you know. Yes, we do have some govt input. Yes the govt can and does tighten the purse strings at times. NO they do not decide who gets what treatment. NO they have absolutely no say what so ever over the basic or extended care levels. Is it perfect? Hell no!!! The Feds and Provinces tax us, that money is sent down to the different areas of need. Health care, highways, etc etc.. At no time does the premier of a province or the prime minister of canada have any bloody say about what treatment we get. Is there waste, yes, is there fraud on the part of some (very very few) practioners? Yes. Does for the most part it work pretty damn well? HELL YES..

    Some time back, late 70s i was skiing in Colorado,, little hill called Aspen, I broke my leg,,, it cost the company I was skiing for a bloody fortune to get it set and cast.. only to find out when i got back to Canada they had done it wrong.. and it had to be rebroken... now, saying that the same thing can happen here,, however.. it does not cost me a penny, not one thin dime.. on either count.

    I stand by my statement, this is less to do about national health care and more about big biz loosing out on a major cash cow.. namely big health care run hospitals and insurance companies. I reassert, that the only reason so many bloody people are up in arms about this is the scare tactics that these big businesses have been using. comon Death panels, rationing, give me a break. Fact, if you can afford to go to a big hospital,, and pay to get to the front of the line you get the better care.. the cash that is paid out is far more then the average american makes in a year. Your right its about money, and who controls it.. right now.. the big health companies and the insurance companies do.. and you have absolutely no say in it.. have the money come from your tax dollars, and i will bet far fewer people are paying 3800 for 6 bloody stitches..
    Time for the average american (sorry folks, but i am only generalizing here) to get his or her head out of their collective a$$es and realize that you are being sold a bill of goods... and you in your much vaunted individualism are swallowing it hook line and sinker..
    Try looking at it from a personal view, how about this, your loved one gets cancer, ( i am sorry if i offend) by the time you go through all the chemo radiation and every bloody other thing they can throw at you ,,, your loved one either recovers or dies.. either way.. you and possiblly the rest of your family are living in the back seat of your car eating from dumpsters because the health care companies have taken it all.. i know i know its extreme. or is it...
  4. #2404  
    My wife has lung cancer and please let me assure you that none of us are living in the back of the car or eating out of dumpsters. Please let me assure you...please.

    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    Well up here in the great white north, we have govt health care, as I am sure you know. Yes, we do have some govt input. Yes the govt can and does tighten the purse strings at times. NO they do not decide who gets what treatment. NO they have absolutely no say what so ever over the basic or extended care levels. Is it perfect? Hell no!!! The Feds and Provinces tax us, that money is sent down to the different areas of need. Health care, highways, etc etc.. At no time does the premier of a province or the prime minister of canada have any bloody say about what treatment we get. Is there waste, yes, is there fraud on the part of some (very very few) practioners? Yes. Does for the most part it work pretty damn well? HELL YES..

    Some time back, late 70s i was skiing in Colorado,, little hill called Aspen, I broke my leg,,, it cost the company I was skiing for a bloody fortune to get it set and cast.. only to find out when i got back to Canada they had done it wrong.. and it had to be rebroken... now, saying that the same thing can happen here,, however.. it does not cost me a penny, not one thin dime.. on either count.

    I stand by my statement, this is less to do about national health care and more about big biz loosing out on a major cash cow.. namely big health care run hospitals and insurance companies. I reassert, that the only reason so many bloody people are up in arms about this is the scare tactics that these big businesses have been using. comon Death panels, rationing, give me a break. Fact, if you can afford to go to a big hospital,, and pay to get to the front of the line you get the better care.. the cash that is paid out is far more then the average american makes in a year. Your right its about money, and who controls it.. right now.. the big health companies and the insurance companies do.. and you have absolutely no say in it.. have the money come from your tax dollars, and i will bet far fewer people are paying 3800 for 6 bloody stitches..
    Time for the average american (sorry folks, but i am only generalizing here) to get his or her head out of their collective a$$es and realize that you are being sold a bill of goods... and you in your much vaunted individualism are swallowing it hook line and sinker..
    Try looking at it from a personal view, how about this, your loved one gets cancer, ( i am sorry if i offend) by the time you go through all the chemo radiation and every bloody other thing they can throw at you ,,, your loved one either recovers or dies.. either way.. you and possiblly the rest of your family are living in the back seat of your car eating from dumpsters because the health care companies have taken it all.. i know i know its extreme. or is it...
  5. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #2405  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    Your right its about money, and who controls it.. right now.. the big health companies and the insurance companies do.. and you have absolutely no say in it..
    This is where your streaming conciousness flies off the track. I actually DO have a say in it. I can pick my doctor, my plan, my premiums, HRA, FSA, no plan. I can choose my doctor, how many doctors I want to consult with, which specialists, how often I'm seen and when, and in 99% of the cases without delays (yes I know about dermatology waiting lists), which procedures I want, and on and on.

    There's a whole slew of choices and plans. If they deregulate the insurance companies more and allowed them to sell across state lines, I'll have even more choices and probably at a much more competitive rate.

    Once they go to a single payer government system, that all goes out the window.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #2406  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    My wife has lung cancer and please let me assure you that none of us are living in the back of the car or eating out of dumpsters. Please let me assure you...please.
    Peace to you and yours, bclinger. I hope she recovers soon.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #2407  
    I believe in your case you are not living in the back of a car.. it was for effect only.. yes there is a wait for some things... let me point to the one little thing i mentioned before.. if you pay you get to go to the head of the line.. based on previous posts, 3800.00 for six stitches,, i would suggest the vast majority of Americans can not afford even the insurance... in fact your own insurance companies have said as much. ummmm wrong,, ya well.. the bones were not lined up.. so ya.. wrong.. ps it was a very clean break..
    Last edited by xForsaken; 09/24/2009 at 05:31 PM.
  8. #2408  
    streaming lolol ok.. yes you have a choice,, a vast myriad of choices... all over priced,, all with hidden deductibles.. ohhh and here is the fun part.. you get to pay every month for years.. then suddenly because you or one of yours gets ill.. an tadddddddddaaaaaaaaaa they cancel coverage on you.. hmmm yup sounds like one hell of a system you got there.. lol oh by the way.. you would pay far less for your health care if everyone was paying evenly.. far and away less.. and.. you wont have your insurance cancelled just cuz you get sick.. lol
  9. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #2409  
    xForsaken, please use the quote button when responding to someone's post. Nobody knows who you're responding to.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #2410  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Please, oh please show us the error of our ways by pointing us to the legislation under consideration which creates this Single-Payer System which aims to kill kids, grannies, and puppy dogs, Insurance Guy ...

    Must See :

    Protect Insurance Companies PSA from FOD Team, Will Ferrell, Jon Hamm, Olivia Wilde, Thomas Lennon, Donald Faison, Linda Cardellini, Masi Oka, Ben Garant, Jordana Spiro, lauren, Drew Antzis, and chad_carter - Video
    Is this like some sort of game to you? You and your titfortat link posting and references. If you don't understand that the government single payer plan is Obama's goal by now, nothing I can say or post will make you understand.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #2411  
    Fact I live in a Govt controlled health care system.. last time i checked.. all the things you claim that will come to pass because of such a govt controlled system have not happened..
    whats the term they use, you know the ones.. the ones that believe the earth is actually flat, that armstrong never landed on the moon.. etc etc.. conspiracy yup thats it.. you honestly believe everyone is out to get you.. cheers..
  12. anthillmob's Avatar
    Posts
    8 Posts
    Global Posts
    11 Global Posts
    #2412  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    streaming lolol ok.. yes you have a choice,, a vast myriad of choices... all over priced,, all with hidden deductibles.. ohhh and here is the fun part.. you get to pay every month for years.. then suddenly because you or one of yours gets ill.. an tadddddddddaaaaaaaaaa they cancel coverage on you.. hmmm yup sounds like one hell of a system you got there.. lol oh by the way.. you would pay far less for your health care if everyone was paying evenly.. far and away less.. and.. you wont have your insurance cancelled just cuz you get sick.. lol
    "lol oh by the way.. you would pay far less for your health care if everyone was paying evenly.. far and away less.."

    Except everybody would not be paying evenly.... in a system based on a progressive tax system, they never do. Not to mention that the burden of paying for such a system falls mainly on those of working age while those reaping the benefit are typically older...... and even putting aside that you have no idea how much the person you are referring to pays for health care, your statement that it would cost "far and away less" is without substantiation.

    At the end of the day, here is what public health care would do. It would improve the health care of those at the bottom of current system (those without health insurance) but would be detrimental to pretty much everybody else (the majority with insurance) and of course there would be cost implications. Now, some might think that this means the argument is whether or not this is a good trade, i.e. does society as a whole benefit from this exchange. And I would guess this is how the more liberal posters see it and that they conclude that this is a good deal. However, the point being missed is that it does not matter if this is a "good deal", it does not make it right to take (forcefully) from one to give to another, and it certainly does not make it the business of the federal government. To give of yourself to help another is a noble and great thing...... to use the machinery of democracy to take from somebody else to help another is not.
  13. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #2413  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yeah, I had forgotten you don't give a damn about them either, do you? How'd you feel about SCHIP? It was passed by a republican congress and a democratic president, and in case you don't know anything about it, it provides low-cost insurance for children that are ineligible for Medicaid but still are at 200% of the federal poverty guidelines. A good example of a bipartisan program that filled in holes for uninsured children. A good example of what we could do if people actually got involved in the process instead of obstructing and rooting for failure for political reasons.

    There, feel better? They're included. And by the way....cynicism about the health of children is unbecoming.
    On the contrary, what I'm cynical about is the guy who tries to come off as level-headed and just wanting what's best but who can't seem to miss an opportunity to impugn the motives, intelligence, and character of those with whom he disagrees.
    Last edited by groovy; 09/25/2009 at 02:49 AM.
  14. #2414  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    "lol oh by the way.. you would pay far less for your health care if everyone was paying evenly.. far and away less.."

    Except everybody would not be paying evenly.... in a system based on a progressive tax system, they never do. Not to mention that the burden of paying for such a system falls mainly on those of working age while those reaping the benefit are typically older...... and even putting aside that you have no idea how much the person you are referring to pays for health care, your statement that it would cost "far and away less" is without substantiation.

    At the end of the day, here is what public health care would do. It would improve the health care of those at the bottom of current system (those without health insurance) but would be detrimental to pretty much everybody else (the majority with insurance) and of course there would be cost implications. Now, some might think that this means the argument is whether or not this is a good trade, i.e. does society as a whole benefit from this exchange. And I would guess this is how the more liberal posters see it and that they conclude that this is a good deal. However, the point being missed is that it does not matter if this is a "good deal", it does not make it right to take (forcefully) from one to give to another, and it certainly does not make it the business of the federal government. To give of yourself to help another is a noble and great thing...... to use the machinery of democracy to take from somebody else to help another is not.
    now this is a fair argument.. the other is simply trite, death panels, rationing etc etc.. you at least are using something that is fact.. the other not at all.. thanks..
  15. #2415  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    "
    At the end of the day, here is what public health care would do. It would improve the health care of those at the bottom of current system (those without health insurance) but would be detrimental to pretty much everybody else (the majority with insurance) and of course there would be cost implications. Now, some might think that this means the argument is whether or not this is a good trade, i.e. does society as a whole benefit from this exchange. And I would guess this is how the more liberal posters see it and that they conclude that this is a good deal. However, the point being missed is that it does not matter if this is a "good deal", it does not make it right to take (forcefully) from one to give to another, and it certainly does not make it the business of the federal government. To give of yourself to help another is a noble and great thing...... to use the machinery of democracy to take from somebody else to help another is not.
    I can promise (but would certainly be open to be proven wrong) that you can find no evidence whatsoever that any of the discussed plans would be detrimental to the health care of everyone with insurance. What makes you think that that is the case? Do the restrictions (and denials) that are put on care by many private HMO's and PPO's not count because they are from an insurance company, and therefore they're just fine? The fact is that better control of excessively used and ineffective tests, for example, will actually improve the quality of care. I can give you a lot of references if you want them.

    Additionally, if you want to talk philosophy, the government has always taken from one to give to another,no matter how you p**** the words. The only question is whether health care is different from education and we feel it should be provided, or whether we draw a line at people's health and say we just don't care about that, it's just like having a nice house. It's NOT like having a nice house. You shouldn't have to go bankrupt for an appendectomy. If you don't believe that, fine. But be clear about the specifics of the case at hand, and don't pretend it's really not about health care at all, but redistribution, or a power grab, or any of the other BS descriptions of health care reform trumpeted by opponents. This is about people's health. Simple.
  16. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #2416  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The fact is that better control of excessively used and ineffective tests, for example, will actually improve the quality of care. I can give you a lot of references if you want them.
    This can be resolved *without* a massive and expensive government takeover of health care insurance.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #2417  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Additionally, if you want to talk philosophy, the government has always taken from one to give to another,no matter how you p**** the words.
    This isn't true. The original intent of our government was *not* for the redistribution of wealth. That "purpose" didn't get kicked into gear until the early 1900s.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #2418  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    This isn't true. The original intent of our government was *not* for the redistribution of wealth. That "purpose" didn't get kicked into gear until the early 1900s.
    And like most conservatives, that's where you would like us to be....pre-1900. Sorry, we've stayed relevant.

    Additionally, you didn't respond to the issue I raised. Do you or do you not believe that everyone in the US should have affordable health care? If you do, doesn't that make it a "right" by definition? Or are you opposed to that concept?
    Last edited by davidra; 09/25/2009 at 09:17 AM.
  19. #2419  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    This can be resolved *without* a massive and expensive government takeover of health care insurance.
    Good. So you agree that doctors and patients should not be able to do or get anything they want, right? Tell me then, who should determine that? Each individual private insurer? Should the non-profit plan where you work have it's own list of approved interventions and every other plan do the same thing? And if so, how much will that cost your business? And how much will it cost providers who will need a different list for each insurer. Let's get detailed here.
    Last edited by davidra; 09/25/2009 at 09:12 AM.
  20. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #2420  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And like most conservatives, that's where you would like us to be....pre-1900. Sorry, we've stayed relevant.
    What a flippant response. Thanks.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

Posting Permissions