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  1. #2301  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    The gentleman in the video obviously learned it somewhere. Maybe he read it on the internet?
    Perhaps he did. He may have also heard it via a radical 'christian' sect such as an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventists that only represents an extremely small denomination of 'Christian churches'. It still does not mean that it is a reasonable question in the manner you phrased it. BTW, what's the article that goes with that picture?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #2302  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Perhaps he did. He may have also heard it via a radical 'christian' sect such as an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventists that only represents an extremely small denomination of 'Christian churches'. It still does not mean that it is a reasonable question in the manner you phrased it. BTW, what's the article that goes with that picture?
    Apparently, the answer to the quesion on the marquee is no. While I disagree with this pastors theological point of view, at least he's making an attempt to address the issue (albeit, using the wrong forum, IMO).

    http://www.connectamarillo.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=213827
  3. #2303  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Just the slow folks.... lack of heath insurance doesnt cause death.
    Also from the article:

    After additional adjustment for race/ethnicity, income, education, self- and physician-rated health status, body mass index, leisure exercise, smoking, and alcohol use, the uninsured were more likely to die (hazard ratio=1.40;n95% CI=1.06, 1.84) than those with insurance.
    The increased risk of death attributable to uninsurance suggests that alternative measures of access to medical care for the uninsured, such as community health centers, do not provide the protection of private health insurance.
    You can play word games if you'd like, I suppose. But the simple conclusion is this: if you lack insurance, you are more likely to die. And for those who argue we already provide health care through emergency rooms, it simply isn't as effective (and certainly isn't cost effective) as actual health insurance. It's as simple as that. Can we agree on that and move on?
    Last edited by Bujin; 09/20/2009 at 02:21 AM.
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  4. groovy's Avatar
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    #2304  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    By those standards, it's completely reasonable to question President Obama on Jeremiah Wright or Bill Ayers.
    Yes! Speaking of racism...

    http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/godingovernment/2009/06/jeremiah_wright_them_jews_keeping_him_from_obama.html
  5. #2305  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Oh please prove that.
    I can't speak for churches teaching that Obama is the Anti-Christ, but well known right-wing nutjob site WorldNetDaily has certainly been spreading that little tidbit:

    Is Obama the Antichrist?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  6. #2306  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I can't speak for churches teaching that Obama is the Anti-Christ, but well known right-wing nutjob site WorldNetDaily has certainly been spreading that little tidbit:

    Is Obama the Antichrist?
    So they are doing it with scriptures. I thought they'd be doing it with numbers. Like add 7, subtract 3 ... Is Shirley Lynn Phelps-Roper somehow involved with this?
    Last edited by palandri; 09/20/2009 at 09:35 AM.
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  7. #2307  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Apparently, the answer to the quesion on the marquee is no. While I disagree with this pastors theological point of view, at least he's making an attempt to address the issue (albeit, using the wrong forum, IMO).

    Church marquee for sermon about Obama turns heads : News : KVII
    That was my point. The question was semi-rhetorical since I had found the article already. I was just curious if the picture was just a Google image search posted without knowledge of its source, or if it was an attempt to mislead.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #2308  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I can't speak for churches teaching that Obama is the Anti-Christ, but well known right-wing nutjob site WorldNetDaily has certainly been spreading that little tidbit:

    Is Obama the Antichrist?
    That link isn't to WorldNetDaily. The article it references, though, does not seem to come to the conclusion that the Examiner author claims it does. Honestly people. Can't you see that you're all doing the same thing? Questioning whether Christian churches are teaching that Obama is the anti-christ based on a Youtube video is _exactly_ at the same level of reasoning as questioning whether Barack Obama is directing ACORN to endorse child prostitution based on one or two field offices getting candid camera'd.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #2309  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    That link isn't to WorldNetDaily. The article it references, though, does not seem to come to the conclusion that the Examiner author claims it does. Honestly people. Can't you see that you're all doing the same thing? Questioning whether Christian churches are teaching that Obama is the anti-christ based on a Youtube video is _exactly_ at the same level of reasoning as questioning whether Barack Obama is directing ACORN to endorse child prostitution based on one or two field offices getting candid camera'd.
    Actually, I specifically stated that I couldn't speak for what churches are teaching. I purposesly didn't link to WorldNetDaily, as I clicked the link to WND's site and my hand went numb in disgust.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  10. #2310  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    They even topped Alexa's who's who of where people were getting their info before the election. This is hardly some marginal, benign element.

    WND most popular 'political site'
    Let me see if I have this straight. We're going to trust the self-aggrandizing numbers from January of 2004 when their links are 404'd?

    The best they seem to do is fourth that I can find:
    Alexa - Top Sites by Category: Society/Politics
    Alexa - Top Sites by Category: Society/Politics/News and Media

    Of course, that's not even considering that Alexa doesn't track anything more than traffic. It can't tell you influence.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #2311  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Actually, I specifically stated that I couldn't speak for what churches are teaching.
    Neither can I, because I'm not a church goer, nor a Christian. However, as I said, trying to question some nebulous number of Christian churches due to some kook filmed by someone with their own agenda seems a tad ideological to me.
    I purposesly didn't link to WorldNetDaily, as I clicked the link to WND's site and my hand went numb in disgust.
    So suffice it to say that you didn't actually read the article and find out that it didn't say what your 'data' said it did.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #2312  
    And this billboard has what to do with healthcare?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #2313  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    That was my point. The question was semi-rhetorical since I had found the article already. I was just curious if the picture was just a Google image search posted without knowledge of its source, or if it was an attempt to mislead.
    We'll never know for sure.
  14. #2314  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    And this billboard has what to do with healthcare?
    That's like saying what does your avatar have to do with healthcare.
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  15. #2315  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    No intent to mislead
    You can feign rolling your eyes all you want, but it doesn't reinforce your point.
    as the marquee speaks for itself by leaving purposely ambiguous its intended audience (those sympathetic to believe Obama IS the antichrist vs those with an opposing viewpoint) may have been equally interested in how the church would explain itself.
    I'd be more interested in how you found the picture if you didn't read the article associated with it.
    From one perspective, the question seems to legitimize that Obama may be the antichrist and is worthy of consideration.
    From which perspective would that be?
    At the time the marquee presented that question, is there proof that there was an accompanying disclaimer for passers-by to read which explained the church's intended message?
    I'd suspect not, since its intention with the marquee was to get people into church to hear the sermon.
    Since this was not some internet ad by that church, but a physical marquee on its property, it seems reasonable that those traveling past the church, not knowing otherwise, might be titillated into attending.
    Exactly, which makes it strange that you'd only present the image and "Maybe he read it on the internet?" as support for what I asked.
    Now that I've also seen the net article that followed the event, it's obvious, to me at least, that it was not teaching that Obama is the antichrist.
    What was your source for the picture?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #2316  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    That's like saying what does your avatar have to do with healthcare.
    Back at you. What does YOUR avatar have to do with healthcare.

    Oh right the avatar has nothing to do with the thread youre in. It's more of a personal statement. Maybe things you like or an opinion on something.

    Think before you post
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  17. #2317  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    We'll never know for sure.
    No, if one just sits there in calm reflection, the answer will become self-evident.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #2318  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    No, I believe Bujin sufficiently addressed that with Worldnetdaily's "teaching" of "Barack Obama Equals Antichrist".
    You mean the one where Worldnetdaily actually didn't say that Barack Obama equals Antichrist?
    As to Worldnetdaily's popularity, I'm sure Alexa archives their old pages as most busy sites do.
    I'm sure they do as well. After all, the page you posted was from January of 2004 making it almost 5.75 years old.
    WND just hasn't updated their page to reflect this. I have no reason to suspect they were misrepresenting their popularity above other political sites at the time.
    Which time? The time 'before the election', or the time on the link you posted.
    It was not my intent for anyone to associate the pic with the statement about "the gentleman having read about it on the internet",
    You didn't have to make up a new quote. I quoted you exactly. Nice dodge on the source of the picture, though.
    as I believed that a reader would come away understanding that the "teaching" could have originated in any of more likely sources.
    Like a church in Amarillo where the pastor actually didn't teach that Barack Obama was the antichrist because the Antichrist would likely come from Europe, around Italy? Yes, that makes perfect sense.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #2319  
    I support PRESIDENT OBAMA and his efforts to reform healthcare!
  20. #2320  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    I and realised there is probably no point. Most of what we have been arguing about is what was in the press release (which I hope you will remember I don't rate as a source of information) rather than the meager portion of the actual article we have seen. The actual conclusions you quoted say only that there is an association between uninsurance and mortality and that his association appears to have not changed in the last 20+ years. I think most, if not all, here will agree there is some kind of association between uninsurance and death.
    In fact, it is rather interesting that the published article/conclusions do not state that
    "lack of health insurance causes 44,789 excess deaths annually." or that this is due to a failure to enact a system of universal health care. Perhaps the journal would not allow the publication of such a statement since it is not sufficiently supported by either the data or the analysis presented in the article?
    Well now. You might actually have something there. Maybe Woof could refresh his memory by reading what you said very carefully (maybe that will also get him to find a definition for association that deals with statistical association instead of just pulling something off the web that has nothing whatsoever to do with what we're talking about). It is the difference between cause and association. As I stated before, cause is not the same as association, but there are characteristics of an association that makes it more likely to be a causal association. This association meets many of the criteria as outlined by Bradford Hill including strength of association, plausability, and consistency. Playing semantics about the difference is childish, but not unexpected given the source. Yes, the media piece was a bit biased and misleading in their terminology. That's why you need to read original articles....and be able to understand them. If you pay a lot of attention to media descriptions of scientific articles, you need to reconsider that plan. The fact is that in this case, it makes no difference what words they use....the data speaks for itself. In this study, people without insurance were about 1 and half times more likely to die than those with insurance, with a confidence interval that could have been as high as almost twice as likely. The difference was real, as it was statistically significant.

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