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  1. #2161  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    If you are asking me whether racist views persist in some places, including the South I would say, I'm sure they do. I don't think that segregationists are at all a viable political movement. If someone harbors those tendencies, I cannot say. What would there be to gain?

    I'm not claiming that racism doesn't exist, but on the other hand I'm not liking that anyone who disagrees with this President is presumed to be a racist either. That's simply not true.

    The existence of racists who dislike Obama (and I'm sure they exist) does not mean that anyone who disagrees with him is a racist. Holding that club over people's heads really isn't fair. Pulling out that accusation ends discussion, and people know that and use it whether it is accurate or not. I'm seeing it used with great frequency against individuals that people know nothing about.



    No, I don't really think that yelling and screaming over each other is constructive. However, I can see how people are fed up. I think that our government officials (no matter what party) suffer from Ivory Tower syndrome--in a major way.

    I personally think that our Representatives need a bit of a wake-up call. As I said--I'd prefer a reasoned understanding, but apparently it takes screaming and yelling. I wish it didn't. I've tried to contact my Senators and Representative about various issues, and have had mixed results, most often disappointing.

    Along with screaming and yelling, there are also people who state their viewpoints. Sometimes they are inarticulate, and emotional, or even angry, but they aren't all screaming or attempting to block out others.

    I don't think you can look at the bad examples and project that on everyone.

    KAM
    Under no circumstances do I think that everyone who disagrees with Obama is racist. I have never said that. I do believe, however, that there is a segment of the population, primarily in the south, that do not recognize Obama as president, and this is on racist grounds. If you don't believe that, you've never lived in the south. It is a truism. What I suspect, and note the word "suspect", is that those people who are most enraged and carry signs that are clearly directed against Obama personally have a high percentage of those that aren't willing to accept him as president. I also suspect that not one of them voted for him in the election, and I also suspect that very few, if any, voted for any democrat for president in recent history. And this population, inarticulate and emotional as you call them, have the same goal as the congressman or the talk show host to whom success is having Obama fail, regardless of what it means to the country. And as usual, many of these people are protesting in the face of their own self-interest, primarily because of catch phrases like socialism. You really think these people have a clue about quality and patient safety and even know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid? Very doubtful. But they do know that Obama is a socialist, and that republican talking points include such hogwash as "Obama is changing the country in dangerous ways that can destroy it". That they respond to.

    But the republican party has been very successful at getting people to vote against their own self interest by using wedge issues....and they have turned the right to health care into a wedge issue. Got to hand it to them. Except this time I don't think it's going to work.
  2. KAM1138
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    #2162  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Under no circumstances do I think that everyone who disagrees with Obama is racist. I have never said that. I do believe, however, that there is a segment of the population, primarily in the south, that do not recognize Obama as president, and this is on racist grounds. If you don't believe that, you've never lived in the south. It is a truism. What I suspect, and note the word "suspect", is that those people who are most enraged and carry signs that are clearly directed against Obama personally have a high percentage of those that aren't willing to accept him as president. I also suspect that not one of them voted for him in the election, and I also suspect that very few, if any, voted for any democrat for president in recent history.
    Who other than a few birthers refuse to recognize him as President? I'm sure they exist, but in what numbers? I've heard a number of kooks say "Not my President" in regards to President Bush, so I'm sure those fringe types are out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And this population, inarticulate and emotional as you call them, have the same goal as the congressman or the talk show host to whom success is having Obama fail, regardless of what it means to the country.
    I said some of them are inarticulate or emotional.

    I can't speak for them, but there are definitely things I want President Obama to fail at, but to be accurate it isn't JUST him, but leftists. I don't agree with a variety of thing that they've got on the table. I want them to fail to enact these things because I think they are harmful to me and the nation.

    I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat here, but plenty of people on the left dedicated themselves to President Bush failing, and I don't see them apologizing for it. I think the Democrat Congress (after 2006) was very adamant in opposing pretty much everything President Bush wanted, and I really don't think they were concerned with the country either.

    I don't support what I think is bad for the country--regardless of who is in office. No one should, but they have and they will.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And as usual, many of these people are protesting in the face of their own self-interest, primarily because of catch phrases like socialism. You really think these people have a clue about quality and patient safety and even know the difference between Medicare and Medicaid? Very doubtful. But they do know that Obama is a socialist, and that republican talking points include such hogwash as "Obama is changing the country in dangerous ways that can destroy it". That they respond to.
    Well, I can't really disagree. People often don't know what they are voting for or against. However, given that Obama's campaign was "hope and change" and lacked specifics in many ways, I'd hardly say this is unique to the right. How many people that jumped on the Obama bandwagon knew what they were voting for? How many people were voting against President Bush (despite the fact he wasn't running and equating he and McCain is highly inaccurate--a notion pushed by Obama's campaign).

    How many people over the years have voted for Democrats because they said Republicans are going to take away your social security, medicare or school lunches? Plenty. How many people vote the way their Union bosses tell them?

    This is not unique to Republicans or Democrats. Politicians capitalize on this, playing people against each other while going to town as the populace wallows in ignorance. That's nothing new.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But the republican party has been very successful at getting people to vote against their own self interest by using wedge issues....and they have turned the right to health care into a wedge issue. Got to hand it to them. Except this time I don't think it's going to work.
    I disagree that this is a Republican Practice. If you think that Democrats aren't experts at divisive politics, then I think you are mistaken. As you know, we are in disagreement on many elements of the Medical Reform issue. I think that things are not good and need to change, but I don't believe in the "solutions" that are being forced through either. A bad solution (and I've not heard much to my liking) isn't a good plan.

    I think the Democrats are promising great and wondrous benefits, and I don't believe they can pay off. The alternative isn't to do "nothing" but rather to find better solutions. I don't believe for a minute that this has been an open, honest, objective process. It's politics as usual, the only difference is who is in charge.

    This is obviously your major issue, being a doctor. Ok, I understand that, and I understand and accept that people have different views from mine, and also that I'm likely to lose (my view isn't even being considered). I'm often on the losing end with government, but that's why people like me are getting disillusioned as well. This didn't start with Obama, and it didn't even start with Bush. I think that the 1992 election was a turning point and things have gone downhill steadily since then and it isn't one party's fault. It's politician's fault.

    I'm not on board with that old Republican vs Democrat game. I see it for what it is, and in my view, the people have been losing at almost every turn and will continue to lose unless something changes. I have little hope it will.

    Anyway, thanks for your time, and I appreciate your efforts in restoring some greater constructiveness to our posting.

    KAM
  3. #2163  
    Imagine my surprise. Jimmy Carter agrees with me:

    "I think an overwhelming portion of the intensely demonstrated animosity toward President Barack Obama is based on the fact that he is a black man," Carter said. "I live in the South, and I've seen the South come a long way, and I've seen the rest of the country that share the South's attitude toward minority groups at that time, particularly African Americans."

    Carter continued, "And that racism inclination still exists. And I think it's bubbled up to the surface because of the belief among many white people, not just in the South but around the country, that African-Americans are not qualified to lead this great country. It's an abominable circumstance, and it grieves me and concerns me very deeply."
    He's right. Sorry, Kam, but he's right. Not that everyone opposed to Obama is racist;nobody is saying that. But it's there enough to invigorate those protestors and naysayers to a fever pitch.
  4. #2164  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Who other than a few birthers refuse to recognize him as President? I'm sure they exist, but in what numbers? I've heard a number of kooks say "Not my President" in regards to President Bush, so I'm sure those fringe types are out there.
    Surveys suggest that it's far more than a few birthers:

    http://www.usnews.com/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2009/07/31/poll-on-birthers-most-southerners-republicans-question-obama-citizenship.html
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    #2165  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Imagine my surprise. Jimmy Carter agrees with me:



    He's right. Sorry, Kam, but he's right. Not that everyone opposed to Obama is racist;nobody is saying that. But it's there enough to invigorate those protestors and naysayers to a fever pitch.
    Well heck. If Jimmy says so, it must be true. After all, he would never say anything that could be later considered "careless or misinterpreted"... like, oh, I don't know, bad-mouthing a sitting President to a Syrian journalist while on on Syrian soil.
  6. #2166  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Imagine my surprise. Jimmy Carter agrees with me
    Yes, and in what state did Jimmy Carter leave our economy and position in the world? Obama is shaping up to be the second coming of Carter. Get ready for 18% mortgages.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #2167  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well heck. If Jimmy says so, it must be true. After all, he would never say anything that could be later considered "careless or misinterpreted"... like, oh, I don't know, bad-mouthing a sitting President to a Syrian journalist while on on Syrian soil.
    Does that mean you disagree with what he said, or are you in denial?
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    #2168  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Does that mean you disagree with what he said, or are you in denial?
    I not only disagree with what he said but I think it was irresponsible for him to say it.
  9. #2169  
    A tribute to being #37:
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  10. groovy's Avatar
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    #2170  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    A tribute to being #37:
    The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems

    The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems was last produced in 2000, and the WHO no longer produces such a ranking table, because of the complexity of the task.
    a cursory review of the countries supposedly ahead of us on this list will prove to most people that the WHO failed in this task.
  11. #2171  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    This is an interesting quote, backbeat:
    Son-of-a-gun. Did you just nail it? Thought it might have been just another well trained obstructionist.

    Emphasis by me.
  12. #2172  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems



    a cursory review of the countries supposedly ahead of us on this list will prove to most people that the WHO failed in this task.
    I'll ignore the obvious nationalistic bias in your statement, given the source. You see a lot of Italians, Austrians or Japanese just dying to move here? Just in case you are suffering under the delusion that this is the only evaluation of health care systems that has been done, it's not.

    Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries. This report—an update to two earlier editions—includes data from surveys of patients, as well as information from primary care physicians about their medical practices and views of their countries' health systems. Compared with five other nations—Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand, the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives. The U.S. is the only country in the study without universal health insurance coverage, partly accounting for its poor performance on access, equity, and health outcomes. The inclusion of physician survey data also shows the U.S. lagging in adoption of information technology and use of nurses to improve care coordination for the chronically ill.
    Commonwealth Fund 2007


    WASHINGTON, Jan 8 (Reuters) - France, Japan and Australia rated best and the United States worst in new rankings focusing on preventable deaths due to treatable conditions in 19 leading industrialized nations, researchers said on Tuesday.

    If the U.S. health care system performed as well as those of those top three countries, there would be 101,000 fewer deaths in the United States per year, according to researchers writing in the journal Health Affairs.

    Researchers Ellen Nolte and Martin McKee of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine tracked deaths that they deemed could have been prevented by access to timely and effective health care, and ranked nations on how they did.

    They called such deaths an important way to gauge the performance of a country's health care system.

    Nolte said the large number of Americans who lack any type of health insurance -- about 47 million people in a country of about 300 million, according to U.S. government estimates -- probably was a key factor in the poor showing of the United States compared to other industrialized nations in the study
    US last in preventable deaths

    And there are plenty more. You and your ilk insist on trying to rationalize why we do so poorly, when there are no data that suggest otherwise. You can pick at the outcomes that are measured....but they are standard health outcomes that are common sense. Our health care for the US population as a whole is not good, because we have so many without access. Accept it. It's the truth.
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       #2173  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And there are plenty more. You and your ilk insist on trying to rationalize why we do so poorly, when there are no data that suggest otherwise. You can pick at the outcomes that are measured....but they are standard health outcomes that are common sense. Our health care for the US population as a whole is not good, because we have so many without access. Accept it. It's the truth.
    It's not "truth", it's total "bunk". You can make "data" slant any way you wish an argument to go. I've experienced healthcare in this country. I can make an assessment based on my experience. My assessment is it's excellent.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #2174  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's not "truth", it's total "bunk". You can make "data" slant any way you wish an argument to go. I've experienced healthcare in this country. I can make an assessment based on my experience. My assessment is it's excellent.
    I think you missed his point.

    ...Our health care for the US population as a whole is not good, because we have so many without access. Accept it. It's the truth.
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  15. #2175  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's not "truth", it's total "bunk". You can make "data" slant any way you wish an argument to go. I've experienced healthcare in this country. I can make an assessment based on my experience. My assessment is it's excellent.
    No, he didn't miss the point. All he cares about is his health care.....which can go away at any minute. Me, me,me. May be excellent for you...but there are others.

    And by the way....find some statistics that show anything differently. That way we might pay attention to something other than anecdotes, which mean nothing at all. Do we really care what you think? Nope.
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       #2176  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I think you missed his point.
    His "point" is a false argument, so it was ignored, not missed.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #2177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    His "point" is a false argument, so it was ignored, not missed.


    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  18. KAM1138
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    #2178  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Hello Bujin,

    I've got to say I'm surprised by that. However, I have a question. Are people saying they don't know where he was born supporting this "birther" nonsense or are they just stating they don't know.

    Let me be clear--I believe he was born where he says he was--Hawaii. Further, it doesn't matter anyway, because he was born a US citizen, because of his mother, so the whole thing is a ridiculous non-issue as far as I see it.

    That whole thing is as ludicrous as the "truthers" in my view, and I denounce it as both irrelevant and just not true.

    KAM
  19. #2179  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    That whole thing is as ludicrous as the "truthers" in my view, and I denounce it as both irrelevant and just not true.
    An interesting point about that was that when Chris Matthews pointed out the poll when it was released a while back, he also pointed to a similar poll showing similar percentages of Democrats buying into Bush being involved with perpetuating 9/11.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #2180  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Imagine my surprise. Jimmy Carter agrees with me:

    He's right. Sorry, Kam, but he's right. Not that everyone opposed to Obama is racist;nobody is saying that. But it's there enough to invigorate those protestors and naysayers to a fever pitch.
    Well, I don't place much stock in Jimmy Carter's views, but I guess that's not relevant. Michael Steele--the GOP Chairman (who is is African American) stated that he disagrees--which isn't a surprise--he's the GOP chairman, and his party is being accused of this. He stated that he agrees that racism is out there, but this isn't it.

    He pointed out (in regards to Rep Wilson from SC) that he doesn't believe President Obama saw that outburst as racially motivated, because he (graciously in my view) accepted his apology. If he thought Wilson was attacking him as a racist, would he forgive him? I don't know what President Obama's thoughts are there, but Steele called on him to speak out on this.

    I realize you aren't trying to say that everyone who opposes Obama is a racist, and I'm glad you are making that distinction.

    I can't speak for Southerners (I'm not from the South), but amongst the people I know--some of whom are not at all supportive of President Obama, not one has every mentioned it or alluded to his race. Not one. That's MY experience. I'm not saying my experience is global by any means--I'm just saying what people I know say and do.

    I really don't understand it, because I think President Obama (to his credit) didn't present himself as a "black" president, or try and play the race game at all. I think he really rose above that in the campaign, and I give him credit for that.

    There are plenty of REAL reasons to disagree (or agree) with President Obama and his policies and proposals. I'll just end this by stating very clearly that I do not agree with anyone who might attack President Obama due to his ethnicity. I don't live my life that way, and never have.

    KAM

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