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  1. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #2141  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    That is a RESPONSE to your claim (see below). Apparently you are very confused about the word "originate."

    You posted an opinion-based accusation, and then demand that others provide data to back up their opinion based response.

    You are very quick with your accusations, distortions and now outright lying, and I suspect you rely on this. I'm not sure what children you are used to bullying, but the posts are here to see, exactly who responded to what and what the origination point is, despite your false claims to the contrary.

    It is clear that you have absolutely zero intention on engaging in any sort of honest discussion.

    KAM
    So, lacking any supportive evidence, you now ask me to prove a negative?? This isn't "bullying", this is just asking for cool, calm-headed common sense. Sorry that you're so absorbed into partisanship that you're blind to that, but I can only help you so much. I'll just ignore the vile, personal smear you perpetuate against those who might differ with you.

    One thing we appear to agree upon though: There is no evidence to support that Tea-baggers or others bussed in protesters to get in the previous administration's face over their socialist bailouts.
  2. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #2142  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I'm having a hard time keeping track of these different stories, but I'll try. Who mentioned "30+M accounted for an 'uninsurable'"? Nobody mentioned "uninsurable" except you. I don't get how that relates to what the President is saying. Are you saying he now is including illegal immigrants in the 30 million number?
    I'm only saying what OMB says. If you can follow their explanation, including their explanation of "uninsurable", then you follow mine.

    Distort away ...
  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #2143  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    I'm only saying what OMB says. If you can follow their explanation, including their explanation of "uninsurable", then you follow mine.

    Distort away ...
    So as to avoid "distorting" anything. Please point to what the OMB says about "uninsurable".
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    #2144  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    So as to avoid "distorting" anything. Please point to what the OMB says about "uninsurable".
    You've already made it clear that you do not buy that OMB's reference to "cannot get" (as in "unobtainable") refers to those who are uninsurable, even when supported by OMB's explanation which leaves no doubt that the "over 30M" figure that the president used was referring to exactly that.

    whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/09/10/CountingtheUninsured46MillionorMorethan30Million/

    To not accept that there is a definitional difference between those who are among the total "uninsured" (46.3M - 2008), which includes several million according to OMB who may qualify for public plans but have not acquired them, and those who are "uninsurable" (>30M) is beyond discussion.

    Distort away ...
  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #2145  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And yes, in fact, I admit to having suspicions that many of the most vocal protestors who have clogged up discourse and held Hitler signs and claims about the president lying have racist tendencies. Just a guess. I have no real data to confirm that, but apparently none is needed to sound profound in this thread.
    I'm shocked that you can't recall the many claims about Bush being equal to Hitler or about his administration's Nazi tactics.
  6. KAM1138
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    #2146  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    So, lacking any supportive evidence, you now ask me to prove a negative?? This isn't "bullying", this is just asking for cool, calm-headed common sense. Sorry that you're so absorbed into partisanship that you're blind to that, but I can only help you so much. I'll just ignore the vile, personal smear you perpetuate against those who might differ with you.

    One thing we appear to agree upon though: There is no evidence to support that Tea-baggers or others bussed in protesters to get in the previous administration's face over their socialist bailouts.
    You continue to engage in dishonest practices.

    Do you think that I'm bothered by calling TARP and other bailouts that occurred under President Bush socialist? You must imagine that your little labels and accusations are somehow made true by your wishing they were so, in order to amuse yourself by fantasizing about how effective your posts are at whatever you believe you are accomplishing.

    They are socialistic. Of course you've probably not realized that your labeling them as socialist supports the claim that Obama (who both voted for them as a Senator and continued these programs as President) has these socialist tendencies. I'm sure it's hard to avoid stumbling over your own ever-twisting nonsense.

    You are attempting to reiterate your ill-conceived swipe in regards to protesting those actions, pretending that people didn't voice any opposition. They did, but perhaps you aren't able to comprehend that things outside of your own observations occur. Again, you expose your total disinterest whether your petty attacks have any validity.

    I'm pointing out out your dishonest practices that litter your posts. You demand data of others, while providing none of your own. YOUR actions define you as a hypocrite.

    You just continually pivot, lie, and otherwise distort what is said. You've got absolutely no shame--your "discussion" skills are akin to that of a wounded animal thrashing about in a trap. The amazing thing isn't that you are that dishonest (your type of nonsense is a dime a dozen) but that you seem to believe your own nonsense.

    KAM
  7. #2147  
    This is an interesting quote, backbeat:
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    [...] I'll just ignore the vile, personal smear you perpetuate against those who might differ with you.
    Considering:
    One thing we appear to agree upon though: There is no evidence to support that Tea-baggers or others bussed in protesters to get in the previous administration's face over their socialist bailouts.
    This is how you always wind up getting banned and having to come up with a new variation on "andanotherthing" or "andonemorething". It's painfully obvious to the thinking among us that you are dishing out your own personal smears. I'm sure you'll try and deny that 'Tea-bagger' is an insult, and that this is the first account you've ever registered here. Have fun playing in the dirt with those you consider yourself above.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #2148  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    You've already made it clear that you do not buy that OMB's reference to "cannot get" (as in "unobtainable") refers to those who are uninsurable, even when supported by OMB's explanation which leaves no doubt that the "over 30M" figure that the president used was referring to exactly that.

    whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/09/10/CountingtheUninsured46MillionorMorethan30Million/

    To not accept that there is a definitional difference between those who are among the total "uninsured" (46.3M - 2008), which includes several million according to OMB who may qualify for public plans but have not acquired them, and those who are "uninsurable" (>30M) is beyond discussion.

    Distort away ...
    Again, that flies in the face of your original statement which, if anyone is wondering, was:

    Wow! Talk about disconnected! His statement is plain on its face in meaning that 30M are uninsurable, as defined by today's insurance industry for dropped coverage, maxed-out coverage, pre-existing conditions, etc. Not that there are only a total of 30M uninsured. Talk about a spun out of control political reach!
    Nothing in the OMB's response supports that claim.
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    #2149  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I'm shocked that you can't recall the many claims about Bush being equal to Hitler or about his administration's Nazi tactics.
    Thanks for your personal endorsement for continuing the vicious downward spiral. Where does the buck stop?
  10. KAM1138
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    #2150  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I liked Goldwater and Buckley, actually. I respected them for their intelligence and rational thinking. As I recall, both ended up feeling like the party had deserted those ideals. Yes, the other party changed too. While it gained more on the far left, it also lost the segregationist Dixiecrats to the republicans. Some would consider it well worth the trade.
    Is that really what you think happened? I think those Dixicrats have long disappeared. I think its not accurate to imply that Republicans are segregationists.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The fact is that I don't consider those idiots (whether at G9 conferences or town halls) who obstruct clarity to be representing either you or me. While I suppose it's possible that Clemgrad or some others on this board might actually make a sign and go down and yell and suppress discussion, the fact is I doubt it. And I don't feel like European Communists who disrupt global economic conferences represent me either. So you share the concerns of some tea-baggers (sorry, that name just feels so right), and I share some concerns of radical protestors. That doesn't mean we are them. There's a big difference.
    I'm sure I do share some views that TEA protestors (I dislike the innuendo of "tea-bagger"). But I agree--we are not them. However, many of them (perhaps the majority) are just citizens who want to voice their views. We might dislike the general views of either, but I don't see a reason to denigrate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    But the fact is that none of this has much to do with health care, and I care much more about that. And it sounds from the talking heads this morning that there may be some movement in a positive direction by the gang of six. I will wait to see what happens.

    Gang of six nears closure
    Yes, I read that as well. I happen to think that what ends up will be similar to what these Senators are working on I heard however, that they are still estimating a cost of 880 billion (over 10 years), which would seem to say that the goal/promise of not increasing the deficit is not going to be met...unless there are additional taxes to prevent that.

    KAM
  11. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #2151  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Nothing in the OMB's response supports that claim.
    You're harping on my personal explanation of who, reasonably, would be excluded from obtaining healthcare coverage, and not focusing on what OMB has said. There are most certainly those who are unable to obtain coverage, public or private, due to maxing-out their existing limit, already denied coverage, etc as well as the specifics that OMB lists.
  12. #2152  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Is that really what you think happened? I think those Dixicrats have long disappeared. I think its not accurate to imply that Republicans are segregationists.



    I'm sure I do share some views that TEA protestors (I dislike the innuendo of "tea-bagger"). But I agree--we are not them. However, many of them (perhaps the majority) are just citizens who want to voice their views. We might dislike the general views of either, but I don't see a reason to denigrate them.



    Yes, I read that as well. I happen to think that what ends up will be similar to what these Senators are working on I heard however, that they are still estimating a cost of 880 billion (over 10 years), which would seem to say that the goal/promise of not increasing the deficit is not going to be met...unless there are additional taxes to prevent that.

    KAM
    Yes, that's exactly what I think happened to the Dixiecrats. Do you really think it's just happenstance that the south turned red? That someone in the Sons of the Confederacy serves in the congress and accused the president of lying? I don't think all republicans are segregationists. I do think that there is much more obvious racism in the rural south, and I bet that much of it (but not all) is concentrated in the republican voting block. I live in the south, was born here and lived here all my life. While things have improved, the rural white southerner, who I see very frequently, sometimes expresses racist comments and thought processes considerably more than most white people in the north, believe it or not. Let's see....the south now is the birthplace of slavery and a hotbed of the Klan and racism for 200 years. Do you believe that or not? The south is now dominated by the republican party. Wow. What a coincidence? In one rural town I'm very familiar with, Obama got 83 votes to over 3000 for McCain. There are about 30 blacks in the community. I'm sure a lot of those votes were because of McCain's stand on torture, right? Hey...that's the way things are, but denying that they're that way is just ludicrous. I would also not deny that a number of black voters voted for Obama because he was black as well. But at least I am honest about it.

    Citizens voicing their view is not how I would describe the activities that I've seen. Citizens yelling and not listening to anyone's comments and shutting off the discussion process is what I've seen, along with hurling insults and calling people names. I really don't think you'd do that, would you? I wouldn't either. Why should they?
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    #2153  
    For what it's worth, I first heard the term "Tea-baggers" on Fox News, so I assumed it was true and accurate.

    foxnews.com/story/0,2933,520899,00.html
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #2154  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Thanks for your personal endorsement for continuing the vicious downward spiral. Where does the buck stop?
    Do you think that's the proper conclusion to the argument that comparing Obama to Hitler is not more racist than comparing Bush to Hitler?
  15. KAM1138
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    #2155  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, that's exactly what I think happened to the Dixiecrats. Do you really think it's just happenstance that the south turned red? That someone in the Sons of the Confederacy serves in the congress and accused the president of lying? I don't think all republicans are segregationists. I do think that there is much more obvious racism in the rural south, and I bet that much of it (but not all) is concentrated in the republican voting block. I live in the south, was born here and lived here all my life. While things have improved, the rural white southerner, who I see very frequently, sometimes expresses racist comments and thought processes considerably more than most white people in the north, believe it or not. Let's see....the south now is the birthplace of slavery and a hotbed of the Klan and racism for 200 years. Do you believe that or not? The south is now dominated by the republican party. Wow. What a coincidence? In one rural town I'm very familiar with, Obama got 83 votes to over 3000 for McCain. There are about 30 blacks in the community. I'm sure a lot of those votes were because of McCain's stand on torture, right? Hey...that's the way things are, but denying that they're that way is just ludicrous. I would also not deny that a number of black voters voted for Obama because he was black as well. But at least I am honest about it.
    If you are asking me whether racist views persist in some places, including the South I would say, I'm sure they do. I don't think that segregationists are at all a viable political movement. If someone harbors those tendencies, I cannot say. What would there be to gain?

    I'm not claiming that racism doesn't exist, but on the other hand I'm not liking that anyone who disagrees with this President is presumed to be a racist either. That's simply not true.

    The existence of racists who dislike Obama (and I'm sure they exist) does not mean that anyone who disagrees with him is a racist. Holding that club over people's heads really isn't fair. Pulling out that accusation ends discussion, and people know that and use it whether it is accurate or not. I'm seeing it used with great frequency against individuals that people know nothing about.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Citizens voicing their view is not how I would describe the activities that I've seen. Citizens yelling and not listening to anyone's comments and shutting off the discussion process is what I've seen, along with hurling insults and calling people names. I really don't think you'd do that, would you? I wouldn't either. Why should they?
    No, I don't really think that yelling and screaming over each other is constructive. However, I can see how people are fed up. I think that our government officials (no matter what party) suffer from Ivory Tower syndrome--in a major way.

    I personally think that our Representatives need a bit of a wake-up call. As I said--I'd prefer a reasoned understanding, but apparently it takes screaming and yelling. I wish it didn't. I've tried to contact my Senators and Representative about various issues, and have had mixed results, most often disappointing.

    Along with screaming and yelling, there are also people who state their viewpoints. Sometimes they are inarticulate, and emotional, or even angry, but they aren't all screaming or attempting to block out others.

    I don't think you can look at the bad examples and project that on everyone.

    KAM
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    #2156  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    You're harping on my personal explanation of who, reasonably, would be excluded from obtaining healthcare coverage, and not focusing on what OMB has said. There are most certainly those who are unable to obtain coverage, public or private, due to maxing-out their existing limit, already denied coverage, etc as well as the specifics that OMB lists.
    Because your personal explanation was used to prove why my premise that Obama was changing his line is false. Now you want to use the OMB's explanation. That's fine because even the OMB's explanation shows that the original "47 million uninsured American's" is false because they're not all Americans.
  17. #2157  
    From outside our borders looking in. What do they think: BBC - Mark Mardell's America: Is race a factor in Obama protests?
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

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    #2158  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Because your personal explanation was used to prove why my premise that Obama was changing his line is false. Now you want to use the OMB's explanation. That's fine because even the OMB's explanation shows that the original "47 million uninsured American's" is false because they're not all Americans.
    You could not be more wrong. But being "right", of course, is not why you continue to argue such nonsense. With all the time you've invested in this subject, you've made that perfectly clear. Therefore, I'll leave you to your errant, deluded views and wish you peace.
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    #2159  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    You could not be more wrong. But being "right", of course, is not why you continue to argue such nonsense. With all the time you've invested in this subject, you've made that perfectly clear. Therefore, I'll leave you to your errant, deluded views and wish you peace.
    Actually, I'll leave it to the other readers to decide. I think the facts of the thread speak for themselves.
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    #2160  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I think the facts of the thread speak for themselves.
    And that would be your final mistake on this subject, as this thread does not prove, nor disprove, anything. The statement from the OMB Director, as confirmed by the president's speech, confirms that with no doubt.

    Peace.

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