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  1. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #2021  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    The problem is that the OMB director does not agree with you. Excuse me if I put a little more stock in his explanation.
    If you had referred to the original source, rather than a Kaiser blog of all things, you'd easily understand that the OMB Director confirms both the 2008 (most recent) figures of the total uninsured (47M), as well as the total number of those who cannot obtain insurance (30M).

    I, too, accept his explanation: "With two different numbers, there has been some confusion as to which is accurate. Well, both are -- and the President's version is more focused on the relevant target population for health reform since it excludes unauthorized immigrants."

    So, according to the same OMB Director you agree with, you also agree that you are confused by the numbers.
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #2022  
    1thing2add, your line of reasoning seems to be drifting. You might want to go back and reread the thread. Then reread the OMB directorls statement. He said nothing about the definition of "uninsurable", which was your first argument.

    By the way, I never said I agreed with the OMB's numbers but I believe his explanation is a more accurate reflection of the reasoning behind the chabge in party line.
  3. #2023  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Well remember doc, not every physician accepts Medicare patients....and I sent you an article not toooo long ago that did discuss how many doctors were dropping such patients because they could not operate on such low reimbursements. So, yes they can go to a list of physicians, but your pre-Medicare doctor may not be on that list. And of course nobody wants to give it up....they paid for it over the course of their working career, they expected to have it, and it's cheap. It's wonderful...except....it's going bankrupt, LOL. I know that is irrelevant to many, especially liberals, but it is a fact, it is going bankrupt and can't last in it's current form.
    Three out of four doctors accept all Medicare patients. This percentage hasn't changed significantly since 2004, and it varies by location, largely depending on the age of the population in that location. Only 28% of physicians accept all Medicaid patients. And since you seem to never get tired of pointing out that it's going bankrupt, I'll never get tired of pointing out that one of the reasons is the pharmaceutical company handout provided by the republicans, and that the ways to fix the costs are to restrict unnecessary tests and uncontrolled visits to subspecialists. Aren't you getting tired of raising the same issue again and again, and having the issue answered the same way every time?

    Survey of physicians
  4. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #2024  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    1thing2add, your line of reasoning seems to be drifting. You might want to go back and reread the thread. Then reread the OMB directorls statement. He said nothing about the definition of "uninsurable", which was your first argument.

    By the way, I never said I agreed with the OMB's numbers but I believe his explanation is a more accurate reflection of the reasoning behind the chabge in party line.
    whitehouse.gov/omb/blog/09/09/10/CountingtheUninsured46MillionorMorethan30Million/

    Read and learn. If you can only continue to obfuscate the issue, there can only be a partisan explanation for it since the good OMB Director lays it out in plain language where the definition of both "uninsured" and "uninsurable" is concerned.
  5. #2025  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    ...It's wonderful...except....it's going bankrupt, LOL. I know that is irrelevant to many, especially liberals, but it is a fact, it is going bankrupt and can't last in it's current form.
    It's going bankrupt! It's going bankrupt! It's going bankrupt! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

    We aren't going to let people over 65 and those who are on Social Security disability go without coverage. You have the best medical minds look at the program, and you follow their recommendations. Sure, it may include a tax hike. I don't have a problem paying more if that's the case.
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  6. #2026  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Three out of four doctors accept all Medicare patients. This percentage hasn't changed significantly since 2004, and it varies by location, largely depending on the age of the population in that location. Only 28% of physicians accept all Medicaid patients. And since you seem to never get tired of pointing out that it's going bankrupt, I'll never get tired of pointing out that one of the reasons is the pharmaceutical company handout provided by the republicans, and that the ways to fix the costs are to restrict unnecessary tests and uncontrolled visits to subspecialists. Aren't you getting tired of raising the same issue again and again, and having the issue answered the same way every time?

    Survey of physicians
    Hey doc.....here's an old article....actually from 1996 that is saying Medicare will be going bankrupt sooner than officials expected:

    Medicare Will Become Bankrupt Sooner than Officials Expected - The Tech

    You say, why the is he giving an article that is 13 years old! Well....this proves this issue has nothing to do with the "....pharmaceutical company handout provided by the republicans..." and that our government, both democrats AND Republicans, have been doing nothing to improve this for the last 13 years.

    Also, this article seems to indicate what I mentioned about more physicians dropping medicare patients, or at least not accepting any more:

    https://www.physicianspractice.com/i...icleID/369.htm

    Health Beat: Doctors Dropping Medicare Patients

    More doctors drop Medicare patients | Independence Institute: Patient Power

    Aren't you getting tired of replying with the same BS answers and me constantly blowing your answers out of the water?

    Later gator....
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  7. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #2027  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You say, why the is he giving an article that is 13 years old! Well....this proves this issue has nothing to do with the "....pharmaceutical company handout provided by the republicans..." and that our government, both democrats AND Republicans, have been doing nothing to improve this for the last 13 years.
    Actually, the problem goes back much farther than the 13 years you reference. Know this: Medicare has been going "bankrupt" since it was established. Without that political football, what else ya got?
  8. #2028  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    It's going bankrupt! It's going bankrupt! It's going bankrupt! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

    We aren't going to let people over 65 and those who are on Social Security disability go without coverage. You have the best medical minds look at the program, and you follow their recommendations. Sure, it may include a tax hike. I don't have a problem paying more if that's the case.
    This is not new news....the article I linked to above was from 1996 and was showing Medicare would be bankrupt by 2002. Of course it didn't hit bottom then, but the point being this is not new news and yet the only response is to continue to lower amounts paid to physicians which in turn causes them to back away from taking on new patients, or dropping Medicare patients all together. So yes, Obama will have to break his tax pledge and raise my taxes (I do make less than $250k) or reduce Medicare reimbursements even further. This doesn't bother me, the reduced reimbursements, as it doesn't seem to bother the doc....which shows that doctors can stand to reduce what they charge even further. Come on doc....get your folks helping the healthcare "biz"....reduce your fees! REDUCE YOUR FEES.....REDUCE YOUR FEES.....REDUCE YOUR FEES! Be a patriot and lead your industry....you can be famous!
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  9. #2029  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Actually, the problem goes back much farther than the 13 years you reference. Know this: Medicare has been going "bankrupt" since it was established. Without that political football, what else ya got?
    I don't believe I need anything more Sooo.....your point is we just dare it to actually go bankrupt? LOL You are a smart one!

    Oh....ignore the posts about physicians dropping Medicare patients....the doc will explain that away somehow....like...."well not in Florida!" or he might just say I'm cruel and uncaring. You never quite know what the doc will come back with....always interesting!
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    "It's good to be the King" - Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part 1

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." General George S. Patton
  10. #2030  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    I don't believe I need anything more Sooo.....your point is we just dare it to actually go bankrupt? LOL You are a smart one!

    Oh....ignore the posts about physicians dropping Medicare patients....the doc will explain that away somehow....like...."well not in Florida!" or he might just say I'm cruel and uncaring. You never quite know what the doc will come back with....always interesting!
    No, I think the point was that the people running the system haven't known what they were doing since the beginning. "Politicians say more taxes will solve everything. And the band played on..."
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #2031  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Hey doc.....here's an old article....actually from 1996 that is saying Medicare will be going bankrupt sooner than officials expected:

    http://Medicare Will Become Bankrupt...ted - The Tech

    You say, why the is he giving an article that is 13 years old! Well....this proves this issue has nothing to do with the "....pharmaceutical company handout provided by the republicans..." and that our government, both democrats AND Republicans, have been doing nothing to improve this for the last 13 years.

    Also, this article seems to indicate what I mentioned about more physicians dropping medicare patients, or at least not accepting any more:

    https://www.physicianspractice.com/i...icleID/369.htm

    Health Beat: Doctors Dropping Medicare Patients

    More doctors drop Medicare patients | Independence Institute: Patient Power

    Aren't you getting tired of replying with the same BS answers and me constantly blowing your answers out of the water?

    Later gator....
    Right. Not one of the three links you posted has any data about numbers of doctors accepting Medicare decreasing. They are opinion articles based on what some doctors say. No, the drug handout isn't the only cause for Medicare's financial issues....it just made it a lot worse. I have never said Medicare didn't need to be changed so it wouldn't run out of funds; in fact, I've said that every time. Don't believe everything you read in blogs. You'll be much better off. And whatever you're blowing out of the water won't be air.
  12. #2032  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Right. Not one of the three links you posted has any data about numbers of doctors accepting Medicare decreasing. They are opinion articles based on what some doctors say. No, the drug handout isn't the only cause for Medicare's financial issues....it just made it a lot worse. I have never said Medicare didn't need to be changed so it wouldn't run out of funds; in fact, I've said that every time. Don't believe everything you read in blogs. You'll be much better off. And whatever you're blowing out of the water won't be air.
    It's okay doc....just regroup....take the night off....your "unquestionable" facts are getting tougher and tougher to defend. To say that more and more doctors are not dropping Medicare patients is just irresponsible. I could have posted even more links to articles saying the same thing. Of course, you da doc and you know everything. LOL I would hate to be the patient that questions your judgement...whew.
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  13. #2033  
    More opinions from outside our borders looking in. There's a lot we can learned here if people would listen: BBC NEWS | Have Your Say | Is Obama right about healthcare?

    I am an American nurse living in Italy where there is socialized medicine. I receive better overall health care here than I ever did for the 30 years I lived in the States. What saddens me about the debate is the fact that the naysayers seem more worried about money and what socialized medicine will cost THEM than they are about the poor devils living without insurance and adequate health care. President Obama is right on with his plan. I wish that well-off Americans would stop being selfish.

    Joanne MacDonell, Talamona, Italy
    Universal health care is the only way to go. Americans don't get that because they are the greediest country on the planet. The "ME" country. Protesters dont want all their fellow Americans to be covered by health care. If doctors & health workers & scientists were not paid ridiculous amounts of money to do their jobs the cost would come down. Capitalism without a cap is just a way for the greedy to suck everyone dry for doing as little as possible. Look at the bankers, lesson not learned.

    Peter, Melbourne, Australia.
    Sorry Mr.Obama the people do not need your socialist approach to Americn way of life.
    Healthcare must remain the affair of individual Americans.
    Public health,Cuban way, will be the end result of healthcare campaign now being waged by the new President.
    Protests in their thousands are being stagen across US .All Americans are saying no to Obama.Congress needs to spike this bill for sake of good governance.
    Taxpayers' money must not be allowed to go down drain.Republicans rise up to say NO.

    akbar ali, morogoro, Tanzania
    I'm an American living in Canada (and have also lived around Europe)

    I find it funny when my fellow countrymen lambast Canada, England and france for having bad health care. They seem totally oblivious to what these countries are really like to live in, and believe the dross being fed to them by their media about how "3rd world" these countries are when it comes to healthcare.

    In reality, WHO rates France at number 1 in the world, UK at 18, Canada at 30.. And the USA way down at #37...

    Martyn Clam, Vancouver, Canada
    The speach given by president Obama was excellent.
    He has great knowledge, diplomacy and he is patriot.

    nora mares, North Vancouver,BC
    So 'tens of thousands' protest about these minescule health reforms that might provide 45 million US citizens with a little bit of health protection.

    Would these 'tens of thousands' just happen to be from the US political and economic elite whose financial system, from which they've accrued such massive wealth and advantage, has just been bailed out by $trillions of US taxpayers money?

    Nick Vinehill, Snettisham, United Kingdom
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  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #2034  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Wow! Talk about disconnected! His statement is plain on its face in meaning that 30M are uninsurable, as defined by today's insurance industry for dropped coverage, maxed-out coverage, pre-existing conditions, etc. Not that there are only a total of 30M uninsured. Talk about a spun out of control political reach!
    Where does that link from the OBM corroborate this statement?
  15. #2035  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    More opinions from outside our borders looking in. There's a lot we can learned here if people would listen: BBC NEWS | Have Your Say | Is Obama right about healthcare?
    Then please move to one of these awesome countries! Please! LOL Why do you keep quoting these people...who are they?....are they real?.....why do I care what someone in Italy thinks? Good grief.....you are....you are just....wow....I don't know what your are. Holy Cow.
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  16. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #2036  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Where does that link from the OBM corroborate this statement?
    As I previously stated, in plain language:

    "Some ambiguity surrounds how to treat individuals who are already eligible for public insurance programs like Medicaid and S-CHIP but do not enroll in those programs, which estimates from the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured suggest may amount to millions of individuals. These individuals are uninsured but some interpretations would suggest they should not be counted among those who "cannot get" coverage. Subtracting them from the total [47M] would produce a number closer to 30 million."

    If you're still unable to properly interpret the OMB Director's very elementary explanation ... Obfuscate away ...
    Last edited by 1thing2add; 09/13/2009 at 09:15 PM.
  17. #2037  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Priceless!
    Man youre easy. Do you fall for that "what's this" gag where someone puts their finger on your shirt and the flicks you in the nose when you look down too?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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  18. #2038  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    As I previously stated, in plain language:

    "Some ambiguity surrounds how to treat individuals who are already eligible for public insurance programs like Medicaid and S-CHIP but do not enroll in those programs, which estimates from the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured suggest may amount to millions of individuals. These individuals are uninsured but some interpretations would suggest they should not be counted among those who "cannot get" coverage. Subtracting them from the total [47M] would produce a number closer to 30 million."

    If you're still unable to properly interpret the OMB Director's very elementary explanation ... Obfuscate away ...
    Just curios, can you quote the part where is says "cannot get" means uninsurable? Or is that your translation?
    Does the 30 mil include any folks that dont want insurance? I seem to recall the 47 mil containing those folks.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
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    #2039  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Man youre easy. Do you fall for that "what's this" gag where someone puts their finger on your shirt and the flicks you in the nose when you look down too?
    If I fell for anything, it was your convincing act of stupidity where Medicare is concerned. However, yours was not the first if that makes you feel any better.
  20. KAM1138
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    #2040  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I have never been impressed with HSA's, in whatever guise they have been sold. I realize they are the backbone of many conservative approaches, but the details of how the money is actually handled is bothersome. If I had invested my HSA with Lehman Bros., I would not be happy. Additionally, as is well known to anyone who has studied HSA's, the major selling point is a tax break. That's fine if you have a decent income, but waitresses will not benefit very much from a tax break. And people with chronic disease will cruise through an HSA in no time unless there are concomitant cost controls.
    Well, couldn't an HSA be invested in so-called "low risk" investments such as treasury bonds. If so, I think they'd be a stable as anything to do with the government.

    As far as Tax breaks--well, I think that making all medical expenses tax deductible from the first dollar is an important thing. A waitress probably wouldn't get much tax benefit not--perhaps because she wouldn't be itemizing. However, that portion of the tax code can easily be revised (or SHOULD be easy). Regardless of whether you itemize or not, you they could make all of those medical expenses deductible. Even if it is a modest benefit--why not give everyone that additional buying power?

    The major benefit I see in the HSA type of arrangement (and it might not be exactly like now), is thath it isn't money that goes into a hole like insurance. Naturally situations vary, but I mentioned my own--my employer and I have paid for many years into an insurance policy with no claims, but the year I need it--I end up paying a VERY large out of pocket percentage. If I had been building up funds in an HSA-type account, my total expenditure would be similar over those years but my out of pocket would be much less.

    Now, I don't support forcing anyone into anything--so if someone had a better option for them, then I see no reason to not offer that. I think for some people (like me) the HSA plan might work out better--and in fact that's exactly the case. As I said--it won't be the same for everyone, but that's something I think people need to decide for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    What I said was that if your direct pay plan was to include seniors, it would require a major reshuffling of Medicare in addition to all the other changes that need to be made, and we have no experience as to whether these will work. Direct pay has been a demonstration project at best. Implementing it right now with little experience in a complicated system seems foolhardy.
    Well, I would tend to agree with your assessment there. As I mentioned, I didn't really envision that we'd try to shift seniors currently on medicare into a different plan. It would be complicated, and they are highly resistant to changes. They are too dependent on it to risk changing, and that's understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    We know where the problems are with Medicare, from the patient's standpoint, from the financial standpoint, from the fraud standpoint, from the doctor's standpoint. Expansion would be much easier, with much less risk, again in my opinion. And although it is true that the overhead for Medicare is slightly underrepresented because other parts of the government are used for parts of the Medicare system it is still more efficient, more nimble and more responsive than most private insurance companies....although some of my colleagues would dramatically disagree, I'm sure.
    Are you saying that other colleagues have experience more problems with medicare than with private insurance? I think you mentioned that some doctors refuse medicaid, because of problems there. I'd also guess that some insurers are better than others as well.

    I've got to admit--I've been very unhappy with the customer service with my insurance company--their answer is invariably to not give any relevant information, but I've had similar displeasure dealing with the hospital as well.

    KAM

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