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  1. #1981  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    The problem is the numbers are still coming in... at least obama is recognizing items are changing and not attempting to snow cone this thing...
    Obama dropped the number by 33%! Not 1 or 2%. If the numbers are "still coming in" and apt to vary by 33%, then I seriously doubt all the rhetoric that's taken place over the past year. This has been a "we must act NOW or people will die!!!" discussion. When an administration touts such dire consequences, combined with wildly inaccurate numbers and wanting to transition almost 10% of the US economy into government hands within a period of several months, that should send up a red flag to any thinking person.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    The other problem is that some people want to focus on such trivial changes as major issues... instead of moving forward and having an honest debate.
    I counter that the administration wants no "honest debate." They've made it clear that anyone that opposes government-run health care is a partisan obstructionist. In Obama's mind, the debate ended on election night. He hasn't met with Republican leaders in 3 months. And he doesn't need debate. He just needs his own party to vote for the legislation.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Not sure most fully understand what is at stake here... or the fact that it IS going to happen, one way or another....
    Not necessarily. His party controls the both houses of Congress with veto-proof majorities; he could have passed health "care" reform back in February IF he could get all the Democrats to go along with it. And the fact is that the president can't get his own party on board. You can be sure that Pelosi and Reid are promising to hand out billions of dollars of wasteful, deficit-exploding pork to buy some of the Democrats' vote, but the fact that they've been too scared to vote on the legislation lets you know that they're not confident that every Democrat will vote their way.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    When it passes, I can't wait to hear the republicans complain because a public option is not available... how obama failed. LOL... politics is good comics, long as you are not caught in the mess.

    Hopefully we won't pass some BS plan that does not cover all americans.... that is what the republicans want.
    We're constantly told that 30 or 45 million people can't afford health insurance. The plans we've seen from Congress will make it very difficult for private businesses to maintain their health insurance plans and push everyone to the public option. If people can't afford health insurance, doctor visits or hospital procedures, then we surely can't afford all those things along with the huge bureaucracy the run them.

    I heard someone say yesterday that it's laughable that the administration plans to save $600 billion by eliminating waste from health-related government programs...and create a much larger government program. Surely we can't all be that gullible.
  2. #1982  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    No big surprise there. No offense....but anyway we can help your retirement account?
    Just make a contribution here: Joe Wilson - The Heckler
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  3. #1983  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    While I'll have to admit my post was from the hip I can point to this:
    Mexico's health care lures Americans

    My personal take is should I find myself facing a catastrophic illness requiring treatment which would bankrupt me, I'm high-tailing it to Europe.

    Of course you can easily assume I want to retire in Europe anyway. Hopefully within 10 years. Just can't convince my wife to choose Amsterdam or Ireland. Too cold for her.
    Ok so a couple questions here.
    Should you be faced with a "catastrophic illness requiring treatment which would bankrupt" you, how would you know which country to go to?
    Europe is not one country obviously so where would you go?
    Also in your decision process how do you determine which country will let you drop in for free treatment? Logic, even in Europe, would dictate that healthcare qualification would be based on residency, tax participation or something. I mean how could they possibly afford not to have some sort of requirement? Without it they would quickly face bankruptcy.
    Also how do you know which medical conditions require bankrupting treatment? Is there a list somewhere?
    Would it then be safe to assume you dont have insurance? Most who do arent worried about bankruptcy.
    If you dont, why not?
    If you dont because it's not affordable, how could you afford to retire to Europe?
    I struggle with that one. Retiring in and of itself is expensive. One must be able to support oneself w/o working right? Relocating a whole family to another country/continent wouldnt be cheap would it? That would mean substantial wealth. If one had such wealth then health insurance would be affordable wouldnt it?

    Could you please explain these things. Thanks.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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  4. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1984  
    We are the only advanced democracy on Earth – the only wealthy nation – that allows such hardships for millions of its people. There are now more than thirty million American citizens who cannot get coverage. In just a two year period, one in every three Americans goes without health care coverage at some point. And every day, 14,000 Americans lose their coverage. In other words, it can happen to anyone.
    Wow! Talk about disconnected! His statement is plain on its face in meaning that 30M are uninsurable, as defined by today's insurance industry for dropped coverage, maxed-out coverage, pre-existing conditions, etc. Not that there are only a total of 30M uninsured. Talk about a spun out of control political reach!
  5. #1985  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Just make a contribution here: Joe Wilson - The Heckler
    Already made a contribution! Gotta love a politician that speaks the truth, finally a politician with some balls to call the Prez out. But how does that get you to France sooner???? I hope you will be changing citizenship when you go so we can count one less liberal voter in this country!
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  6. #1986  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Already made a contribution! Gotta love a politician that speaks the truth, finally a politician with some balls to call the Prez out. But how does that get you to France sooner???? I hope you will be changing citizenship when you go so we can count one less liberal voter in this country!
    The idea was to simply make the nation safer before leaving: Obama heckler Joe Wilson a member of neo-Confederate SCV, fought to keep Dixie flag flying in South Carolina | Crooks and Liars
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  7. #1987  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You won't believe me....but I personally don't own a Confederate Flag, but I also don't see a problem with it. Blacks in my state made this an issue when they should have been focused on real problems in the black community. The Confederate Flag is part of our history and I don't see the problem with it unless one is looking for excuses. So....GO JOE!
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  8. #1988  
    Quote Originally Posted by 1thing2add View Post
    Wow! Talk about disconnected! His statement is plain on its face in meaning that 30M are uninsurable, as defined by today's insurance industry for dropped coverage, maxed-out coverage, pre-existing conditions, etc. Not that there are only a total of 30M uninsured. Talk about a spun out of control political reach!
    Cannot get coverage does mean uninsurable. that might be one of the reasons but you can't infer from that sentence that that is only only reason. Well YOU might be able to but there are other reasons people are uninsured.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  9. #1989  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    You won't believe me....but I personally don't own a Confederate Flag, but I also don't see a problem with it. Blacks in my state made this an issue when they should have been focused on real problems in the black community. The Confederate Flag is part of our history and I don't see the problem with it unless one is looking for excuses. So....GO JOE!
    The problem is not the flag... it is the representation of the flag... that is what you are missing.

    Blacks can focus on issues in the black community, but, unfortunately, they also have to contend with issues outside of the black community that impedes any progress made within the black community.

    It is very unfortunate that people like you don't see that....
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    #1990  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Cannot get coverage does mean uninsurable. that might be one of the reasons but you can't infer from that sentence that that is only only reason. Well YOU might be able to but there are other reasons people are uninsured.
    The issue rests with the misrepresentation or gross misunderstanding that Obama was on 9/09 using a "new" figure to define the number of those who are uninsured. Uninsurable and uninsured have two entirely different meanings, even if they may, or may not, overlap.
  11. brain26's Avatar
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    #1991  
    Here is a very simple solution to Obama's Health Insurance dilemma....

    Have every democrat vote for it, remember that he needs exactly 0 votes from a republican to pass any bill he wants.

    The problem is within his own party don't allow them to blur the issue.
  12. #1992  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    Obama dropped the number by 33%! Not 1 or 2%. If the numbers are "still coming in" and apt to vary by 33%, then I seriously doubt all the rhetoric that's taken place over the past year. This has been a "we must act NOW or people will die!!!" discussion. When an administration touts such dire consequences, combined with wildly inaccurate numbers and wanting to transition almost 10% of the US economy into government hands within a period of several months, that should send up a red flag to any thinking person.
    Honestly, you can't be that focused on Republican Talk that you have not read about this stuff yourself?

    Of course the numbers are moving... there are MANY different sides to health care. You are not understanding the big picture.

    Doing the Math on the Uninsured - Megan McArdle

    I counter that the administration wants no "honest debate." They've made it clear that anyone that opposes government-run health care is a partisan obstructionist. In Obama's mind, the debate ended on election night. He hasn't met with Republican leaders in 3 months. And he doesn't need debate. He just needs his own party to vote for the legislation.
    Okay.

    It is funny you don't mention the places the dems and republicans have worked together... nor do you mention the fact republicans are discussing and making progress in getting their items included in the bill... use google.

    Not necessarily. His party controls the both houses of Congress with veto-proof majorities; he could have passed health "care" reform back in February IF he could get all the Democrats to go along with it. And the fact is that the president can't get his own party on board. You can be sure that Pelosi and Reid are promising to hand out billions of dollars of wasteful, deficit-exploding pork to buy some of the Democrats' vote, but the fact that they've been too scared to vote on the legislation lets you know that they're not confident that every Democrat will vote their way.
    It is going to happen, simply because there will be too many Republicans want to support the bill.

    Too many Americans hurting under the current system to simply NOT support this attempt at Health care reform. Don't be fooled by the rhetoric of the few Republicans.... Like Limbaugh.

    Of course the dems are fighting about it... that is what good politicians do... they fight and hammer out what they believe is the best outcome.

    If all the Dems agreed, you would argue that they have not read the plan and are simply lock in step with whatever the president says!!!! REALLY... think about what you are saying!!!

    [/quote]We're constantly told that 30 or 45 million people can't afford health insurance. The plans we've seen from Congress will make it very difficult for private businesses to maintain their health insurance plans and push everyone to the public option. If people can't afford health insurance, doctor visits or hospital procedures, then we surely can't afford all those things along with the huge bureaucracy the run them.[/quote]

    Does not matter. Any American uninsured is too much. Any amount!

    So I guess your BIG IDEA is to keep things the way they are?

    I heard someone say yesterday that it's laughable that the administration plans to save $600 billion by eliminating waste from health-related government programs...and create a much larger government program. Surely we can't all be that gullible.
    I heard someone say Sprint is giving out HTC Pro 2's for free if you call retentions within the next two hours!

    Seriously, it is all about the numbers... not sure what you are talking about so I can't comment either way. Many numbers being floated around while people attempt to hash this out.

    I need to get back to doing something productive... been nice... lol
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  13. groovy's Avatar
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    #1993  
    Theog, your link seems to contradict your assertion that the presidents numbers were based on the difference between uninsured and uninsurable.
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #1994  
    I keep hearing this idea that any number of uninsured is too many. While this sounds nice, it leaves out a lot of factors. For example, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are two people who probably don't need medical insurance. But more to the point, nobody wants to see people who need insurance go without insurance. That's not the point. The point is, how many of these people are required to cause a fundamental change in the system? Should we change the whole system for 500 people? 100? 20? Of course I'm using absurdly small numbers to illustrate my point.
  15. 1thing2add's Avatar
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    #1995  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I keep hearing this idea that any number of uninsured is too many. While this sounds nice, it leaves out a lot of factors. For example, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are two people who probably don't need medical insurance. But more to the point, nobody wants to see people who need insurance go without insurance. That's not the point. The point is, how many of these people are required to cause a fundamental change in the system? Should we change the whole system for 500 people? 100? 20? Of course I'm using absurdly small numbers to illustrate my point.
    It's not about the number of those uninsured. It's about the cost of providing treatment to those who are uninsured and under-insured. One of the primary points being that those without insurance are not seen until their illness is more advanced, therefore more advanced and more costly tests and treatment are required. Who ultimately bares that economic burden within our current system? Every single one of us. So, if anyone wants to scream "Socialism" again, you're already guilty of being a willing participant. To take a stand against the current system requires one to refuse to pay federal and state/municipal taxes again. However, this is not a new revelation.

    The cost of treating the uninsured, compounded by the private insurance industry business model which has the motivation and practice to outlay as little on a per-case basis as possible, is bankrupting our healthcare delivery system.
  16. #1996  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I keep hearing this idea that any number of uninsured is too many. While this sounds nice, it leaves out a lot of factors. For example, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are two people who probably don't need medical insurance. But more to the point, nobody wants to see people who need insurance go without insurance. That's not the point. The point is, how many of these people are required to cause a fundamental change in the system? Should we change the whole system for 500 people? 100? 20? Of course I'm using absurdly small numbers to illustrate my point.
    It would be silly for Bill Gates or Warren Buffet not to have insurance.

    I have one family by me, that the father runs his own business and says he can't afford it. I have a similar family by me that could buy it but don't because they say if you are deathly sick they have to treat you. I also have a women by me that can't get insurance due to preexisting condition - a hip replacement.

    My wife and I have double insurance. I have a family plan and she has a family plan we pay for. If I don't work 400 hours a quarter, they cancel my insurance. My wife works retail and is like anybody else, she could get laid off tomorrow.

    When people get laid off who have insurance, they get a cobra letter telling them they can pay $600 to $800 a month to continue their health insurance. The last thing a person needs is an added expense like that when they get laid off.

    Lots of of small businesses claim they can't afford insurance. Bigger businesses may have 120 hours of opening, but won't hire 3 full-time people, they would rather hire 6 part-time people because it's cheaper. The part-time people don't get benefits like healthcare or vacation pay.

    The other problem is that healthcare is eating up too much of the pie. 16% of our GNP and we are not covering everybody, the bad cases, and they would eat up even more of the pie. In England, where everyone is covered, healthcare only eats up 8% of the GNP. Comparing the GNP numbers tells me that 50% of the money we pay for healthcare is wasted in one way or another.

    There a relatively small, not for profit, religious hospital by me that almost had their tax exempt status removed by the city, because they weren't doing the amount of charity work required. Their accounting is public due to their tax exempt status. The CEO was making 1.2 million per year salary and on top of that their housing was paid for by the hospital. Does that make sense?
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  17. #1997  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    [...] Comparing the GNP numbers tells me that 50% of the money we pay for healthcare is wasted in one way or another. [...]
    It could also be that you're oversimplifying things. What are their survival rates for things like cancer? It's expensive to treat, and with our views on what should and shouldn't be covered by insurance, the expenditures can add up pretty quickly.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #1998  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    The problem is not the flag... it is the representation of the flag... that is what you are missing.

    Blacks can focus on issues in the black community, but, unfortunately, they also have to contend with issues outside of the black community that impedes any progress made within the black community.

    It is very unfortunate that people like you don't see that....
    Unfortunately folks like you "baby" blacks like they are these helpless people, and buy into this crap that they are being held back. Obama proved blacks can do anything. Because some blacks are offended by a flag it must be bad, even though it has a different meaning to white folks who don't look at it at all as slavery flag....it's the flag that many of their ancestors died fighting for. Blacks should put a flag way down on the list of things they need to be concerned with...geez....it is unforunate that people like you can't see that. It's like, dang, if that flag was gone black's problems would be gone.

    I grew up going to Citadel football games and they don't even allow the band to play "Dixie" any more. Give me a break. As a kid growing up, the song had no connection to me about slavery, it was just a fun song to sing along with at the games and get the fans all fired up. But no....can't play it if it might offend a black person.
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  19. #1999  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    It would be silly for Bill Gates or Warren Buffet not to have insurance.

    I have one family by me, that the father runs his own business and says he can't afford it. I have a similar family by me that could buy it but don't because they say if you are deathly sick they have to treat you. I also have a women by me that can't get insurance due to preexisting condition - a hip replacement.

    My wife and I have double insurance. I have a family plan and she has a family plan we pay for. If I don't work 400 hours a quarter, they cancel my insurance. My wife works retail and is like anybody else, she could get laid off tomorrow.

    When people get laid off who have insurance, they get a cobra letter telling them they can pay $600 to $800 a month to continue their health insurance. The last thing a person needs is an added expense like that when they get laid off.

    Lots of of small businesses claim they can't afford insurance. Bigger businesses may have 120 hours of opening, but won't hire 3 full-time people, they would rather hire 6 part-time people because it's cheaper. The part-time people don't get benefits like healthcare or vacation pay.

    The other problem is that healthcare is eating up too much of the pie. 16% of our GNP and we are not covering everybody, the bad cases, and they would eat up even more of the pie. In England, where everyone is covered, healthcare only eats up 8% of the GNP. Comparing the GNP numbers tells me that 50% of the money we pay for healthcare is wasted in one way or another.

    There a relatively small, not for profit, religious hospital by me that almost had their tax exempt status removed by the city, because they weren't doing the amount of charity work required. Their accounting is public due to their tax exempt status. The CEO was making 1.2 million per year salary and on top of that their housing was paid for by the hospital. Does that make sense?
    Employers should give insurance to their employees because it is the smart way to attract better employees. There is absolutely NO REASON that a business should be forced to provide healthcare for it's employees. Please tell me where it says the employer's objective should be to provide healthcare benefits? Believe it or not, businesses are not established to provide health insurance, but for some reason, liberals have developed this mentality that it the responsibility of employers to do so.....crazy. Again....the smart thing to do....but should not be mandatory.

    Obama wants to make it mandatory. Not sure how big the business is that your neighbor owns, but depending on the final bill, he will not have the choice. He will either pay premiums (72.5% for all employees, part time and full time and 65% for dependents are numbers I've seen) or have to pay a % of their payroll. That is just not why a person risked his savings to start a business, to be forced to provide benefits for his employees. Again, I believe it is smart to do that, as it attracts better employees and can keep them healthier.
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  20. #2000  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Because some blacks are offended by a flag it must be bad, even though it has a different meaning to white folks who don't look at it at all as slavery flag...
    True, it means very different things for the descendants of those who fought for the right to keep slaves than it does for descendants of those who were slaves.

    The swastika means very different things to Jewish people and non-Jews. Does that make it acceptable for people to post swastikas?

    But then, the importance of context and symbolism of the Confederate Flag may be a bit subtle, if you truly "never understood why it is okay for them to say [the "n word"] and not whites".
    Last edited by Bujin; 09/12/2009 at 09:20 PM.
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