Page 10 of 143 FirstFirst ... 567891011121314152060110 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 200 of 2855
  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by hypocaffeinemia View Post
    I would like to see some evidence that the standard of care is dramatically different to countries with low malpractice suit rates.
    I would like to see some real numbers put to your three scenarios earlier.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #182  
    Now, now - that ain't true and you know it. You are really blowing a lot of air in that statement.

    Where is the goal to excel with a government operated system? Where is the goal to innovate in a government system? There is none and no reason for one. Competition provides the goal to innovate and excel. There is nothing wrong with making a profit at anything you want to get involved in. A reasonable profit is great. If you work in the private sector I am sure your company makes a profit and is entitled to make that profit. A person chooses to become a doctor and to go through many years of training - why can that person not be allowed to make a profit? No profit - who pays for his/her education? Government? Goodness. You are really blowing a lot of air.

    Incidentally, in the doctor's office I hear my wife's first name - never have I heard her referred to as "patient."


    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    This is what horrified me when I moved here. In the USA a sick person is a client/revenue center, in most other comparable countries a sick person is a patient.
  3. #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I believe you've argued against applying that concept to overall citizenry.
    You need to read more carefully then (or assume less from what you read). Just because I have doubts about a certain plan (or the sketchy details on it), does not mean that I am opposed to any plan if it makes sense. I'm just not convinced by anecdotes or invented crises. Tell me how much it will cost. Tell me what we _know_ will be gained or saved due to that cost. Tell me if it will increase my tax burden and how. My employer provides 'free' insurance to individuals and discounted insurance to families. If I instead choose to be covered under my wife's plan, will that 'benefit' which I do not in fact receive be considered part of my income?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Now, now - that ain't true and you know it. You are really blowing a lot of air in that statement
    I wish I was. In my lifetime I have lived in two countries that put a radically different emphasis on the health of it's population. It's no secret that the US system is about profit and if that's the way American's want it then that's just fine.

    In a publicly run system (not publicly insured) the hospitals only goal is to provide healthcare to the population. No profit margins, no shareholders, no insurance companies. It's all about making people well for the sake of improving their lives. Why is that not a reason to do your best work?

    Innovation comes from trying to do better for your fellow citizens not because you want to stick it to the institution down the street.

    The American dogma is really about the individual and only doing what is good for the individual despite the well being of everyone. Not my cup of tea per say but again, it's representative of the majority. For that reason I don't think Government involvement in heathcare can be properly realized here.
  5. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    The American dogma is really about the individual and only doing what is good for the individual despite the well being of everyone. Not my cup of tea per say but again, it's representative of the majority. For that reason I don't think Government involvement in heathcare can be properly realized here.
    No offense intended, really, but this is a load of bullcrap. You've gotten yourself all skewed up over competing ideologies here.

    The idea is that providing a good or better service will realize higher revenues. This is part of what drives innovation, but more importantly *funds* innovation.

    It's quite possible, believe me, that the people who work in healthcare in the US are in it to improve and help their fellow man. It's even possible to help people, and make money doing it. Where do you people get this need to assign guilt to every paycheck you see?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Another very important difference is that the current U.S. system, by all measures, is providing less quality of care to it's population than most of the European systems you criticize.
    Now *this* is a claim that I'd like to see supported.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It's quite possible, believe me, that the people who work in healthcare in the US are in it to improve and help their fellow man.
    Possible yes, likely no. The system just isn't set up that way nor was it founded/built on those principles.
  8. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Another very important difference is that the current U.S. system, by all measures, is providing less quality of care to it's population than most of the European systems you criticize.
    Oh, and which European system did I criticize? I seem to recall mentioning both France and Sweden... but that was to say that I'd heard good things about them, except that it takes too long for some specialized needs and procedures.
    The most fundamental difference is that the U.S. system actually attempts to profit from illness.
    If this were true, the "U.S. system" could also be introducing harmful contaminants and viruses into the "system".... hey!..... profits would rise through the roof! Eureka! Then we can buy even more South American sweatshops to manufacture our goods using child labor! You've solved the depressed economy! I wonder why this idea hasn't come to us evil U.S. systems types sooner!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Possible yes, likely no. The system just isn't set up that way nor was it founded/built on those principles.
    damn profiteers in healthcare. I hate em! Next time you see a nurse, just slap her silly!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Now *this* is a claim that I'd like to see supported.
    Random example:
    People without direct access to heathcare in the USA, 40-50 million.
    People without direct access to heathcare in France, zero.

    In defense of the USA, it is not the policy of the federal or state governments to insure access to quality healthcare for all of it's citizens.
  11. #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    damn profiteers in healthcare. I hate em! Next time you see a nurse, just slap her silly!
    There is nothing wrong with being compensated for providing healthcare services. Such as my wife receives monthly compensation for her duties as the medical director of a hospital microbiology laboratory.

    But IMO a corporation (or similar) profiting from healthcare is wrong. Naturally this point of view comes from my background of living most of my life in another country. Your point of view may differ :-)
  12. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Random example:
    People without direct access to heathcare in the USA, 40-50 million.
    People without direct access to heathcare in France, zero.

    In defense of the USA, it is not the policy of the federal or state governments to insure access to quality healthcare for all of it's citizens.
    I guess I don't get your definition of "direct access". Even those without healthcare insurance get treatment in the US via Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, the VA, etc. Plus there are many faith based organizations and organizations like the United Way... not everything requires a government solution, you know.

    Does the system need improvements, we all agree. Do we need one healthplan for all of america? Nope.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. anthillmob's Avatar
    Posts
    8 Posts
    Global Posts
    11 Global Posts
    #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Possible yes, likely no. The system just isn't set up that way nor was it founded/built on those principles.
    Again, it returns to which system attracts the best people and motivates them to work hard? One that offers the opportunity to make lots of money, or one that relies on people's desire to help their fellow man. The first system has been shown to work repeatedly in a number of industries, while the latter typically fails (since it ignores human nature). In summary, it is emotional nonsense that the motivation matters..... it is the level of care that matters. Also, the suggestion that what is best for the individual and what is best for the general population are mutually exclusive is false. Many of us believe that focusing on providing good service to the individual IS what is best for the general population.... kind of like look after the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves :-).
  14. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Naturally this point of view comes from my background of living most of my life in another country. Your point of view may differ :-)
    No no no no! Don't worry! Many born and raised right here in the USA share your point of view. And I'd die for your right to express it. I just don't agree with it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    Again, it returns to which system attracts the best people and motivates them to work hard? One that offers the opportunity to make lots of money, or one that relies on people's desire to help their fellow man. The first system has been shown to work repeatedly in a number of industries, while the latter typically fails (since it ignores human nature). In summary, it is emotional nonsense that the motivation matters..... it is the level of care that matters. Also, the suggestion that what is best for the individual and what is best for the general population are mutually exclusive is false. Many of us believe that focusing on providing good service to the individual IS what is best for the general population.... kind of like look after the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves :-).
    Excellent post. Good to see someone that gets it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    If this were true, the "U.S. system" could also be introducing harmful contaminants and viruses into the "system".... hey!..... profits would rise through the roof! Eureka! Then we can buy even more South American sweatshops to manufacture our goods using child labor! You've solved the depressed economy! I wonder why this idea hasn't come to us evil U.S. systems types sooner!
    Your response is flippant.
  17. #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by anthillmob View Post
    Again, it returns to which system attracts the best people and motivates them to work hard? One that offers the opportunity to make lots of money, or one that relies on people's desire to help their fellow man. The first system has been shown to work repeatedly in a number of industries, while the latter typically fails (since it ignores human nature). In summary, it is emotional nonsense that the motivation matters..... it is the level of care that matters. Also, the suggestion that what is best for the individual and what is best for the general population are mutually exclusive is false. Many of us believe that focusing on providing good service to the individual IS what is best for the general population.... kind of like look after the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves :-).
    If what you say is true, would the U.S. population not lead the World in all measures of Healthcare efficacy?
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    damn profiteers in healthcare. I hate em! Next time you see a nurse, just slap her silly!
    A nurse is a laborer. Not an investor.
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Now *this* is a claim that I'd like to see supported.

    Rank Country or territory Infant mortality rate(deaths/1,000 live births) Under-five mortality rate (deaths/1,000 live births)
    List by the United Nations Population Division
    163 United States 6.3 7.8
    164 New Caledonia 6.1 8.7
    165 Cyprus 5.9 6.9
    166 Brunei 5.5 6.7
    167 Channel Islands ( Jersey and Guernsey) 5.2 6.2
    168 Cuba 5.1 6.5
    169 New Zealand 5.0 6.4
    170 Portugal 5.0 6.6
    171 Italy 5.0 6.1
    172 Ireland 4.9 6.2
    173 Canada 4.8 5.9
    174 United Kingdom 4.8 6.0
    175 Slovenia 4.8 6.4
    176 Israel 4.7 5.7
    177 Netherlands 4.7 5.9
    178 Luxembourg 4.5 6.6
    179 Australia 4.4 5.6
    180 Austria 4.4 5.4
    181 Denmark 4.4 5.8
    182 Germany 4.3 5.4
    183 Spain 4.2 5.3
    184 France 4.2 5.2
    185 Belgium 4.2 5.3
    186 South Korea 4.1 4.8
    187 Switzerland 4.1 5.1
    188 Czech Republic 3.8 4.8
    189 Finland 3.7 4.7
    190 Hong Kong 3.7 4.7
    191 Norway 3.3 4.4
    192 Sweden 3.2 4.0
    193 Japan 3.2 4.2
    194 Singapore 3.0 4.1
    195 Iceland 2.9 3.9


    List by the CIA World Factbook
    (all 2009 est.)

    Rank Country or territory Infant mortality rate(deaths/1,000 live births)
    178 United States 6.26
    179 Guam 6.05
    180 Cuba 5.82
    181 European Union 5.72
    182 Italy 5.51
    183 Isle of Man 5.37
    184 Taiwan 5.35
    185 San Marino 5.34
    186 Greece 5.16
    187 Ireland 5.05
    188 Canada 5.04
    189 Wallis and Futuna 5.02
    190 Monaco 5.00
    191 New Zealand 4.92
    192 United Kingdom 4.85
    193 Gibraltar 4.83
    194 Portugal 4.78
    195 Australia 4.75
    196 Jersey 4.73
    197 Netherlands 4.73
    198 Luxembourg 4.56
    199 Guernsey 4.47
    200 Belgium 4.44
    201 Austria 4.42
    202 Denmark 4.34
    203 South Korea 4.26
    204 Liechtenstein 4.25
    205 Slovenia 4.25
    206 Israel 4.22
    207 Spain 4.21
    208 Switzerland 4.18
    209 Germany 3.99
    210 Czech Republic 3.79
    211 Andorra 3.76
    212 Malta 3.75
    213 Norway 3.58
    214 Anguilla 3.52
    215 Finland 3.47
    216 France 3.33
    217 Iceland 3.23
    218 Macau 3.22
    219 Hong Kong 2.92
    220 Japan 2.79
    221 Sweden 2.75
    222 Bermuda 2.46
    223 Singapore 2.31


    The numbers don't lie.
  20. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
       #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Your response is flippant.
    A flippant assertion required it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

Posting Permissions