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  1. Micael's Avatar
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       #1  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    Ah, spoken like someone with a true understanding of history and economics both. Not.

    It's very specifically the lack of regulation that got us into the recession that finally caused GM and Chrysler to collapse.
    Wrong. It was a combination of factors. You're right in thinking that greed had something to do with it. Greed of the labor unions. Labor unions are responsible for driving more wealth out of this country than anything else.

    The fact that foreign manufacturers built a better, more reliable, more fuel efficient product also had something to do with it. But when you have an overhead like labor unions on your p&l, it makes it a bit difficult to cut costs and compete.

    We're talking about the largest transfer of wealth in history. Regulation and labor KILLS growth. Governments don't make money, they spend it. You need to do some serious rethinking.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Wrong. It was a combination of factors. You're right in thinking that greed had something to do with it. Greed of the labor unions. Labor unions are responsible for driving more wealth out of this country than anything else.

    The fact that foreign manufacturers built a better, more reliable, more fuel efficient product also had something to do with it. But when you have an overhead like labor unions on your p&l, it makes it a bit difficult to cut costs and compete.

    We're talking about the largest transfer of wealth in history. Regulation and labor KILLS growth. Governments don't make money, they spend it. You need to do some serious rethinking.
    This is way off topic, but I have to respond.

    Being a blue collar, working class, Union Electrician, that is the most outrageous statement I have ever read.

    You just got laid off from CitiCorp, where their good old boy executives were reaping in million of dollars in bonuses while at the same time getting government bailout money. I truly hope you weren't making more than minimum wage at CitiCorp or else you were probably part of their outrageous labor cost.

    Look at Levi Strauss. They closed their last US factory in San Antoinio, Texas due to labor cost. You had Union seamstresses making $17 an hour. Can you believe these low life, blue collar, working class people were making that much money? .. and to top it off, they wanted Levi Strauss to pay for healthcare, how outrageous is that?

    ..and look at the auto workers, these low life's want to make a middle class income of $25 an hour. Sorry, you can blame them for the car design, they don't design them, they only assemble them.

    All our factories are going south of the boarder for cheaper labor, and look at what's happened there now. Left wing governments are being democratically elected. That was totally predictable.

    Labor Unions are just as important today as they ever were, because corporations are just as dedicated to their bottom line, regardless of the consequences for workers.
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  3. Micael's Avatar
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       #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    This is way off topic, but I have to respond.

    Being a blue collar, working class, Union Electrician, that is the most outrageous statement I have ever read.
    Then you need to read more. It's true, and I'm not the only one that thinks it. Sorry if you were offended.

    You just got laid off from CitiCorp, where their good old boy executives were reaping in million of dollars in bonuses while at the same time getting government bailout money. I truly hope you weren't making more than minimum wage at CitiCorp or else you were probably part of their outrageous labor cost.
    Sounds like a little jealousy here. But tell me the Unions aren't just as guilty of greed. And how much do they care about us non-union workers? I don't know a single union worker that doesn't have two or three recreation vehicles, a boat, some motor cycles, time to enjoy them, etc. And they have retirement to look forward to, with benefits. I can't afford toys on my non-union "middle class wage", nor do I ever see myself retired.
    Look at Levi Strauss. They closed their last US factory in San Antoinio, Texas due to labor cost. You had Union seamstresses making $17 an hour. Can you believe these low life, blue collar, working class people were making that much money? .. and to top it off, they wanted Levi Strauss to pay for healthcare, how outrageous is that?
    Yeah, they left just cause they were greedy. Right. On the one side you have this thing called foreign competition, on the other you have Big Government dipping into your pockets as deep as it can dig, and standing right next to Big Government is Big Unions demanding pensions and pay raises.

    It's leave the country, or go out of business.
    ..and look at the auto workers, these low life's want to make a middle class income of $25 an hour. Sorry, you can blame them for the car design, they don't design them, they only assemble them.
    Hrm... isn't it amazing that other car manufacturers can make a better product, compete on price, and still pay their employees a livable wage....
    All our factories are going south of the boarder for cheaper labor, and look at what's happened there now. Left wing governments are being democratically elected. That was totally predictable.

    Labor Unions are just as important today as they ever were, because corporations are just as dedicated to their bottom line, regardless of the consequences for workers.
    I can understand that coming from you, having relied on the Unions. But we don't all see it that way. Sorry.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #4  
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  5. Micael's Avatar
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       #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ...
    tyvm
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Then you need to read more. It's true, and I'm not the only one that thinks it. Sorry if you were offended.
    So what are working class people suppose to make per hour? What do you make per hour?

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Sounds like a little jealousy here. But tell me the Unions aren't just as guilty of greed. And how much do they care about us non-union workers? I don't know a single union worker that doesn't have two or three recreation vehicles, a boat, some motor cycles, time to enjoy them, etc. And they have retirement to look forward to, with benefits. I can't afford toys on my non-union "middle class wage", nor do I ever see myself retired.
    I am not jealous, I am outraged... From the AFLCIO, "..Excessive executive compensation has taken center stage since the government bailout of banks that began in September 2008. Americans have expressed outrage as CEOs and other executives responsible for the financial crisis have pocketed millions of dollars from bonuses and golden parachutes..."

    I think you are jealous from that statement. You're correct, union workers make 30% on average than their non-union counterparts. Who's fault is it, if you are working class, and you let yourself be rolled by these millionaires?

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Yeah, they left just cause they were greedy. Right. On the one side you have this thing called foreign competition, on the other you have Big Government dipping into your pockets as deep as it can dig, and standing right next to Big Government is Big Unions demanding pensions and pay raises.

    It's leave the country, or go out of business.
    So you are saying they have to surrender to foreign competition? That unless they can find workers to exploit for $10 a day, they can't compete in the marketplace? That's the only way to survive? Exploit workers in sweatshops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Hrm... isn't it amazing that other car manufacturers can make a better product, compete on price, and still pay their employees a livable wage....
    The UAW workers don't design the cars. Auto workers in Europe make more money than their US counterparts, plus they work a shorter work week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I can understand that coming from you, having relied on the Unions. But we don't all see it that way. Sorry.
    You also have to get the notion out of your head that there are three groups, Worker, Unions and Owners. There are only two. Workers and Unions are one group. I am the Union.
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  7. #7  
    I don't know... When I was a member of a union, all I got out of it was a paycheck lessened by union dues...
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  8. Micael's Avatar
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       #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    So what are working class people suppose to make per hour? What do you make per hour?
    They should make what the market pays. If they don't like that, find a different job. If it doesn't pay enough, they find a way to improve what they have to offer a company, and gain higher earnings. It's really pretty simple, palandri. Nobody "owes" you a livable wage.

    I am not jealous, I am outraged... From the AFLCIO, "..Excessive executive compensation has taken center stage since the government bailout of banks that began in September 2008. Americans have expressed outrage as CEOs and other executives responsible for the financial crisis have pocketed millions of dollars from bonuses and golden parachutes..."
    This is a totally different argument. If you want, start a new thread on CEO compensation. Unions aren't the answer to that argument either, btw.

    I think you are jealous from that statement. You're correct, union workers make 30% on average than their non-union counterparts. Who's fault is it, if you are working class, and you let yourself be rolled by these millionaires?
    Not only that, but if a company is being controlled by the union, I can't even get a job there without signing up and paying my dues.

    Pause and reflect on this. California is heavily heavily unionized and will probably be the next BIG bailout for taxpayers.

    Texas has one of the lowest union rates and has created more jobs in the last year than all of the heavily unionized states combined. At this rate, California may have to move south of the border too.
    So you are saying they have to surrender to foreign competition? That unless they can find workers to exploit for $10 a day, they can't compete in the marketplace? That's the only way to survive? Exploit workers in sweatshops?
    I've never worked for a union, and I've not worked in a sweat shop. You've been drinking the Koolaid I think. Try seeing for yourself and not just believing what they want you to believe.
    The UAW workers don't design the cars. Auto workers in Europe make more money than their US counterparts, plus they work a shorter work week.
    Wow. So you going to move there?
    You also have to get the notion out of your head that there are three groups, Worker, Unions and Owners. There are only two. Workers and Unions are one group. I am the Union.
    You may be the Union, but I'm a worker without a union... well... a union of one I guess. I look out for myself just fine thanks.
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  9. Micael's Avatar
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       #9  
    To me, Labor Unions are the tools of Socialism, and Socialism is the antithesis of Capitalism. Before you go nuts, I mean that in the pure sense, not in the negative fire and brimstone vein that some people apply to the term Socialism. I think that as a whole, Socialism has a noble goal, and that there is room for it in society. It has its pluses. But at the same time, it has its drawbacks, the biggest of which it runs counter to Capitalism (yes, which also has its pluses and minuses).

    The trick is to balance, and I think that sometimes the Labor Unions tip the balance too much, especially when the Democrats are in office.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    To me, Labor Unions are the tools of Socialism, and Socialism is the antithesis of Capitalism. Before you go nuts, I mean that in the pure sense, not in the negative fire and brimstone vein that some people apply to the term Socialism. I think that as a whole, Socialism has a noble goal, and that there is room for it in society. It has its pluses. But at the same time, it has its drawbacks, the biggest of which it runs counter to Capitalism (yes, which also has its pluses and minuses).

    The trick is to balance, and I think that sometimes the Labor Unions tip the balance too much, especially when the Democrats are in office.
    Guess what? It's been 8 years since we have had a democrat as president. The tables have been tipped the other way and look at the shape of the economy.

    You are trying to use Socialism as a scare word. Let's break the two words down to see what they really mean. First off:

    ism = a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice.

    capital = the wealth, whether in money or property, owned or employed in business by an individual, firm, corporation, etc.

    social = of or pertaining to human society.

    As soon as talk about National Health Care comes up, the right starts screaming that's socialism.
    Last edited by palandri; 06/17/2009 at 05:23 PM.
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  11. #11  
    To me a labor union holds an employee back. A bright/up/coming person has little chance of advancement due to seniority. National health care is socialism - one pay, taxing the workers company provided insurance as income.. Call it what you want to, bunches of us call it for exactly what it is - SOCIALISM.

    With National health care - who pays for it? We all do out of our pockets. The government decides on what is done, when, et cetera and if you are unlucky enough to be called "not worth it," then bubba, you are not worth it. Check out England - wow on that.
  12. tirk's Avatar
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    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    With National health care - who pays for it? We all do out of our pockets. The government decides on what is done, when, et cetera and if you are unlucky enough to be called "not worth it," then bubba, you are not worth it. Check out England - wow on that.
    Not the government, NICE. And what's so different from your Health Insurance company doing that anyway? It's not like the Peoples Republic of England has outlawed private health care either, for that matter.

    Oddly enough, the NHS is pretty popular with the vast majority of the people who pay for it too.
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  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You are trying to use Socialism as a scare word.
    Did you actually "read" my post?
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  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #14  
    I'm sorry, I don't want a union hack defining my job for me, my pay, my advancement, if, where and when I can work. Nor do I want a Socialist government that centrally controls the same.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't want a union hack defining my job for me, my pay, my advancement, if, where and when I can work. Nor do I want a Socialist government that centrally controls the same.
    Calling me a hack is bit much don't you think?

    So you don't believe in democracy in the workplace? The workers vote for a Union shop, and you reject the democratic vote?
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  16. Micael's Avatar
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       #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Calling me a hack is bit much don't you think?

    So you don't believe in democracy in the workplace? The workers vote for a Union shop, and you reject the democratic vote?
    The workplace is not a democracy, correct. That would be a disasterous way to run a business. For example, GM and Chrysler.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The workplace is not a democracy, correct. That would be a disasterous way to run a business. For example, GM and Chrysler.
    I'd give you a link the AFLCIO website, but I wouldn't want to blind you by the light.

    I have to admit Micael, you do a better job explaining and defending the right than anyother recent Republican I have heard.
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  18. Micael's Avatar
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       #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I'd give you a link the AFLCIO website, but I wouldn't want to blind you by the light.

    I have to admit Micael, you do a better job explaining and defending the right than anyother recent Republican I have heard.
    Thanks, but I'm not a Republican
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm not a Republican
    What do you consider yourself?
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  20. Cowtown's Avatar
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    #20  
    I share Micael's views and I'm not a Republican either. Although I've had the pleasure of being in a union, Teamsters. I was even forced to go on strike once. It was truly an eye-opening experience for someone such as me who values individual liberty.
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