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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm always amazed at the twist perspective puts on things. You see it as big business exploiting a poor worker, I see it as an opportunity offered to someone looking for work.
    Me too. Sweatshops where people are forced to work 12 to 15 hours a day, live in dormitories and buy only from the company store. This puts union Levi Strauss seamstresses making $17 an hour in the US out of work.

    You need to take the blinders off.
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  2. Micael's Avatar
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       #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Me too. Sweatshops where people are forced to work 12 to 15 hours a day, live in dormitories and buy only from the company store. This puts union Levi Strauss seamstresses making $17 an hour in the US out of work.

    You need to take the blinders off.
    Blinders eh? Especially when I'm driving! lol

    So you have exploited one company's past evil deed, and then you make it sound like every company on wall street has a sweatshop in the Phillipines.

    I'll make sure to keep the blinders off, but you need to stop drinking the koolaid
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Blinders eh? Especially when I'm driving! lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So you have exploited one company's past evil deed, and then you make it sound like every company on wall street has a sweatshop in the Phillipines.

    I'll make sure to keep the blinders off, but you need to stop drinking the koolaid
    It's happening now in Central America at a rapid pace. That why they wanted CAFTA so bad.
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  4. #84  
    Did I not read once that CAFTA was damaging to American workers?
  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Did I not read once that CAFTA was damaging to American workers?
    It's hard to compete against child labor.
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  6. #86  
    I have been an unwilling member of a union and have never derived anything from such a group.....California is royally messed up and imho unions and greedy crooked legislators are at the root of the problem!
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    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by drfrog View Post
    ...greedy crooked legislators...
    Would you stop being redundant?!
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    #88  
    Now that my company just bought 2 (well, 3) other airlines in the past week I'll be happy for my union protections for the merger.
  9. #89  
    Greedy crooked legislators - redundant? Maybe so, but it sure is true. Look at the legislators from the Paradise state of Hawaii is you want a prime example of greed. Pork will never be eliminated or reduced here and the unions have the state, city/county owned down to their undies.
  10. Micael's Avatar
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       #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by Noktomezo View Post
    Now that my company just bought 2 (well, 3) other airlines in the past week I'll be happy for my union protections for the merger.
    Understood. Job security is a wonderful thing to have. Keep in mind that it's not the norm. I've been "downsized" and "merged" 3 or 4 times now in the last 30 years. It's not so bad if you prepare for it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    His wage reference is precisely the point. By the time you add in all the bennies and guarantees the union worker gets over the non-union worker, it probably exceeds his estimate.
    No his wage reference is NOT the point. His rant was that car prices are high because of unions and 80 dollar an hour jobs.

    I asked the obvious question about non-union workers, and the price of cars rolling off their assembly line. Again....I ask, are they any cheaper? Your statement misses the boat as well. Both of you are missing HIS point. hahaha.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    No his wage reference is NOT the point. His rant was that car prices are high because of unions and 80 dollar an hour jobs.

    I asked the obvious question about non-union workers, and the price of cars rolling off their assembly line. Again....I ask, are they any cheaper? Your statement misses the boat as well. Both of you are missing HIS point. hahaha.
    Sorry to jump in the middle of this but I wanted to bring up one thing. Say you have two auto manufacturers: one union and one not. Both of them make the same classes of cars in relatively the same prices ranges. The difference being twofold: one manufacturer pays much more to it's employees that the other, from the ground all the way to the top. The second difference is that one is failing and the other is not. What can we learn from this?

    Of course this scenario alone doesn't provide enough information to draw a firm conclusion. But I think it's fair to say that a company that pays 50% more in payroll and benefits than it's competitor is at a distinct disadvantage. The only thing that can save it is volume and that's where build quality and reliability come in. You can't depends on fleet sales alone and people won't usually make $30,000 decisions based solely on principle.

    By the way, love the quote in your sig.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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       #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Sorry to jump in the middle of this but I wanted to bring up one thing. Say you have two auto manufacturers: one union and one not. Both of them make the same classes of cars in relatively the same prices ranges. The difference being twofold: one manufacturer pays much more to it's employees that the other, from the ground all the way to the top. The second difference is that one is failing and the other is not. What can we learn from this?

    Of course this scenario alone doesn't provide enough information to draw a firm conclusion. But I think it's fair to say that a company that pays 50% more in payroll and benefits than it's competitor is at a distinct disadvantage. The only thing that can save it is volume and that's where build quality and reliability come in. You can't depends on fleet sales alone and people won't usually make $30,000 decisions based solely on principle.

    By the way, love the quote in your sig.
    Apply this analogy to a different industry, and you'll find out why manufacturers have moved offshore. Labor costs and taxes drive them out. It's not greed. They simply cannot compete with companies not saddled with the same. Wait.... didn't Ford move their truck manufacturing to Mexico?

    Believe me, I wish I had a sweetheart deal like the union employees, and that the companies could still compete while affording it. But thats not reality.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Sorry to jump in the middle of this but I wanted to bring up one thing. Say you have two auto manufacturers: one union and one not. Both of them make the same classes of cars in relatively the same prices ranges. The difference being twofold: one manufacturer pays much more to it's employees that the other, from the ground all the way to the top. The second difference is that one is failing and the other is not. What can we learn from this?

    Of course this scenario alone doesn't provide enough information to draw a firm conclusion. But I think it's fair to say that a company that pays 50% more in payroll and benefits than it's competitor is at a distinct disadvantage. The only thing that can save it is volume and that's where build quality and reliability come in. You can't depends on fleet sales alone and people won't usually make $30,000 decisions based solely on principle.

    By the way, love the quote in your sig.
    Feel free groovy.

    Shakespeare was a master wasn't he? I remember as a kid reading the play for the first time, and how stunned I was at the characters Machiavellian tendencies. Alas, as I grew older I realized that it's not so uncommon.

    As for your scenario, there are too many factors involved, labor being just one of them. As someone stated earlier, what about car design, what about short sighted management? These and other factors could have effects that override labor costs. If a CEO doesn't have the good sense to NOT show up in his private jet to ask Congress for money, what makes you think he's applying good sense to anything else?

    I think American car companies are getting their heads handed to them by other manufacturers because they are being out managed plan and simple. In fact, IMO that's the problem in this country in many industries. Look at the current crises in housing, mortgages, banking, Investments, etc., are the workers to blame there too? No, it's a management/leadership problem.
    Last edited by Iago; 07/01/2009 at 07:16 PM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Believe me, I wish I had a sweetheart deal like the union employees, and that the companies could still compete while affording it. But thats not reality.
    Ah! finally, here in lies the crux of your issue with unions. Isn't envy a deadly sin?
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Apply this analogy to a different industry, and you'll find out why manufacturers have moved offshore. Labor costs and taxes drive them out. It's not greed. They simply cannot compete with companies not saddled with the same. Wait.... didn't Ford move their truck manufacturing to Mexico?
    Toyota was actually having GM make a few of there Toyota's

    Ford has actually moved some manufacturing plants from Mexico to El Salvador.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Believe me, I wish I had a sweetheart deal like the union employees, and that the companies could still compete while affording it. But thats not reality.
    Keep drinking the koolaid.
    Last edited by palandri; 07/05/2009 at 12:08 AM.
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    #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Feel free groovy.

    I think American car companies are getting their heads handed to them by other manufacturers because they are being out managed plan and simple. In fact, IMO that's the problem in this country in many industries. Look at the current crises in housing, mortgages, banking, Investments, etc., are the workers to blame there too? No, it's a management/leadership problem.
    Well, I think we can agree there. And why boards continue to pay millions to draw mediocre executives from the CEO-merry-go-round is beyond me. It used to be said that CEO's deserve the compensation because they take the biggest risks. But that ceased to be true a decade ago. That only feeds into the labor problem though. Because the unions will use the huge disparity between executives and employees as justification for demanding increased compensation.
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, I think we can agree there. And why boards continue to pay millions to draw mediocre executives from the CEO-merry-go-round is beyond me. It used to be said that CEO's deserve the compensation because they take the biggest risks. But that ceased to be true a decade ago. That only feeds into the labor problem though. Because the unions will use the huge disparity between executives and employees as justification for demanding increased compensation.
    That argument gets shredded to pieces when you look at the executive salaries/bonuses compared to the union labor costs.

    And why do union workers feel the need to compare their wages to white collar workers? If you want more money get a white colar job.
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  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    And why do union workers feel the need to compare their wages to white collar workers? If you want more money get a white colar job.
    So I take it you're a white colar (sic) worker?

    Your statement is inherently judgmental, bias, and inaccurate. You do have white collar workers that do belong to unions. Also take a look at the AMA (American Medical Association) or the ABA (American Bar Association), what do you think they are? And why is it always the working guy who gets derided for thinking his time, talent, and effort is worth anything?


    As far as pay is concerned, not every white collar job pays more than a blue collar job. (If that is indeed the value judgment you are trying to make). For instance, in a former life I worked in manufacturing, my hourly wage was higher than my supervisors salary. (We were non-union by the way).

    The only problem I see with unions is the fact that many are not as professional as they could or should be. In my experience, I've seen some union leaders who really didn't have the acumen necessary to be very effective. Also, it's kind of hard to focus your attention on union matters when at the same time you as a union official also have to worry about your production too. Unions ought to have professional negotiators working on their behalf, just like management. I know some do but many don't, which is one reason why they have the reputation they have with some people.
    Last edited by Iago; 07/04/2009 at 12:39 PM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  20. #100  
    A lot of jobs that are labeled white collar, aren't worth the effort. The white collar jobs I am talking about, are the ones where they salary you at $34,000 a year and then expect you to work a 54 hour week. They give you a title like assistant manager, but it's just a title, nothing more.
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