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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Palandri, do you also respect Micael's opinion? From reading below, it is not apparent you do. Have you listened to the opposing view point in any detail? If not, do so. Rush Limbaugh and others like him do make a habit of having the facts behind them to support their statements. Limbaugh rarely makes statements like Tom Shales (Obama intelligent and does not want to take over the automobile companies, et cetera - Despite Stumbles, WaPo's Tom Shales Still Calls Obama 'Smartest Kid in Class' | NewsBusters.org) and Michael Beschloss with his statement that Obama is our smartest president - Obama Is Our Smartest President? On Freedom’s Wings.

    So again, do you respect his opinion?
    Absolutely I respect Micael's opinion, and I think he's an outstanding debater and I have said so numerous time.

    I do listen to Rush Limbaugh from time to time. I don't agree with him, but I listen to what he has to say from the right.

    To me, Micael puts up a much more solid debate from the right than Rush Limbaugh does. There is no disrespect intended.
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  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    There is no insult insinuated in the least bit in my response.
    I suppose it depends on how one defines insult.
    I totally respect your opinion. Period.
    First of all, I wasn't stating an opinion. Period. Second, simply saying that you disagree without giving any indication where or why is dismissive. You may respect that I have an opinion, but simply stating that you disagree shows that either you're illustrating the reason for my 'opinion', or you really don't respect me enough to consider what that 'opinion' is.
    Maybe we are looking at two different equations.
    Stop. Think through what you're saying here. You are being so quick to diffuse a perceived disagreement that you're potentially lighting the fuse.
    I am looking at an equation that has two choices, maybe you are looking at an equation that has multiple choices. I am not.
    I am not looking at an equation. That's part of the point. It is simply a fact of life that there are always more than two choices. We are not computers. They can afford the luxury of binary 'thinking'.
    Given the choice of good or bad, I am going to always choose good. Given the choice between life or death, I am always going to choose life.
    The point is that we are almost never given that simple of a choice. 'Good' and 'bad' depend on the situation and perspective. Life and death are sometimes intertwined. If someone is going to kill you if you do not kill them, one would assume that the life you would choose would be your own, but you have still chosen death for them. As I said, 'always' thinking any particular thing is really not thinking, it's reacting. If you disagree with that, you are either not thinking it through or you're lying to one of us (me or yourself).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    No you aren't being realistic. You are acting like people who want healthcare and a retirement account through their employment are being unreasonable. Don't forget that part of the healthcare cost goes to the retired workers healthcare fund. It's a brotherhood thing that you wouldn't understand. Like I said, you think me, I think we. We'll never agree.
    While probably everyone enjoys their employer paying for part of their health insurance, it's not necessarily an employer's duty to do so. They need workers, workers need jobs. Job = money. Anything beyond cash is a bonus, IMO.

    As far as "unreasonable," allow me to present this scenario:

    Electrician A and Electrician B have given estimates to a homeowner for a wiring job. Their cost of materials is roughly the same, but Electrician A charges $200 for labor and Electrician B charges $1100 for labor. When the homeowner asks "why?" Electrician B says that's what he has to charge that to cover the insurance and pensions for all his current and former employees. While supporting people that retired from the business 10 years ago may sound noble, the homeowner goes with Electrician A because they can't justify the 5X higher cost to their budget.

    That may sound like a bizarre example, that that sums up Toyota vs GM when it comes to health care costs per vehicle that rolls off the assembly line. Before the first test drive, a GM car is already $1000 more expensive than a Toyota. And we don't hear anything about Toyota employees being unhappy with management.

    What may seem like a reasonable demand has consequences.

    Some light reading about GM and the UAW from 2006: http://mises.org/story/2124

    (Unbelievably, at its assembly plant in Oklahoma City, GM is actually obliged by its UAW contract to pay 2,300 workers full salary and benefits for doing absolutely nothing. As The New York Times describes it, "Each day, workers report for duty at the plant and pass their time reading, watching television, playing dominoes or chatting. Since G.M. shut down production there last month, these workers have entered the Jobs Bank, industry's best form of job insurance. It pays idled workers a full salary and benefits even when there is no work for them to do.")
  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    No you aren't being realistic. You are acting like people who want healthcare and a retirement account through their employment are being unreasonable.
    No, I'm not. My employer offers both, without a union. They are "incentives" for me to work here, though. Not "rights".
    Don't forget that part of the healthcare cost goes to the retired workers healthcare fund. It's a brotherhood thing that you wouldn't understand. Like I said, you think me, I think we. We'll never agree.
    Funded by the customers, palandri, and probably pricing the employer out of the market... like GM and Chrysler.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    It all done through a negotiation process. We always make sure that we monitor how the company is doing financially. We want the company to do well and make money. Then everybody is happy.
    Talk about the tail wagging the dog!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    While probably everyone enjoys their employer paying for part of their health insurance, it's not necessarily an employer's duty to do so. They need workers, workers need jobs. Job = money. Anything beyond cash is a bonus, IMO.

    As far as "unreasonable," allow me to present this scenario:

    Electrician A and Electrician B have given estimates to a homeowner for a wiring job. Their cost of materials is roughly the same, but Electrician A charges $200 for labor and Electrician B charges $1100 for labor. When the homeowner asks "why?" Electrician B says that's what he has to charge that to cover the insurance and pensions for all his current and former employees. While supporting people that retired from the business 10 years ago may sound noble, the homeowner goes with Electrician A because they can't justify the 5X higher cost to their budget.

    That may sound like a bizarre example, that that sums up Toyota vs GM when it comes to health care costs per vehicle that rolls off the assembly line. Before the first test drive, a GM car is already $1000 more expensive than a Toyota. And we don't hear anything about Toyota employees being unhappy with management.

    What may seem like a reasonable demand has consequences.

    Some light reading about GM and the UAW from 2006: Where Would General Motors Be Without the United Automobile Workers Union? - George Reisman - Mises Institute
    As I explained earlier. I do pay for my health insurance out of the total dollars offered in the wage and benefits. My health insurance is purchased by my union. Each year there's a total wage and benefit dollar amount put forward. We decide on how it's distributed. If it cost $1.50 more per hour worked to keep health insurance, then we put $1.50 of the total wage and benefit package towards it. If we wanted to, we could put the benefit dollars directly on our checks and then pay directly into an IRA and buy our heathcare on our own, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to do it that way.

    I understand your scenario between the labor cost difference between non-union electricians and union electricians. Here's what I can tell you from working in the field for 29 years. Non-union electrical contractors know what union electrical charge for work. There will never be a $200 vs a $1000 labor difference. They know they can bid a job just slightly under what a union electrical contractor charges and get the work, while at the same time paying their electricians $10 to $15 less per hour, and not even have to worry about any type of benefits package. The non-union electrical contractors can make big bucks.

    I've read about the UAW Job Banks program and I don't know a lot about it. I do know that it wasn't a Union proposed program, rather it was a GM proposed program for the retraining of laid off workers, to get other concessions from the UAW. It was a 100 page document in their contract and was ended in December 2008.
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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No, I'm not. My employer offers both, without a union. They are "incentives" for me to work here, though. Not "rights".
    They offer you both? You are going price yourself right out of the market. It all ends up getting paid for by the customer. If I were you, I'd go have a meeting with the CEO this afternoon and propose eliminating these costly expenses to improve the bottom line.
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  8. #68  
    I read something about the salaries of "greedy" CEOs and I got to thinking about the article in the NY Times that talked about GM's Job Bank, which paid employees full salary plus benefits to not work.

    The Oklahoma City GM plant, which hired 2400 people, was shutdown in February 2006. The average GM employee WAGE was $1,250/week (not including health care or pension). For the 2,400 employees, that adds up to $3,000,000 each week; $156,000,000/year. I didn't find exactly how long GM paid into the Job Bank for OKC, but I did find that they said they'd pay through September 2007 (20 months). That could add up to $270,000,000 after 20 months NOT including health care costs.

    And what was the total compensation package for GM's CEO in 2006? $10,200,000.

    GM's total payment to the Job Bank (employees from all plants) in 2006 was about $9.4 million EACH WEEK (benefits excluded), paid to union members who did nothing.

    While people may complain about the CEO's salary, non-working union members at ONE PLANT cost General Motors 15 TIMES more money than did the CEO.
    Last edited by semprini; 06/19/2009 at 01:15 PM.
  9. #69  
    The Job Bank is hard to understand and it's hard to find exact details on it. It's a like it's a secret GM/UAW 100 page document.

    No electrical contractor would pay me for sitting on my rear for 1 minute. As soon as work gets slow, you get laid off and sign the books at the union hall, and wait in line.
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       #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    They offer you both? You are going price yourself right out of the market. It all ends up getting paid for by the customer. If I were you, I'd go have a meeting with the CEO this afternoon and propose eliminating these costly expenses to improve the bottom line.
    it's pretty standard stuff... and "we" didn't even need a Union to come in and hammer the boss for it! Go figure!

    What they offer isn't actually retirement. It's the standard 401k whereby if I contribute some of my pay, pretax, my employer will match a percentage. Different employers vary how much they'll match, some as high as 1:1. Some will start with a low match rate, and then increase what they match for each year you're there.

    I think your Unions go for full retirement plans that the employer picks up completely. A sweeter deal, to be sure.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #71  
    Excellent post, semprini! Thanks!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12. #72  
    One main reason the auto industry has sunk, is because of the union. I wish I had a $80 an hour blue collar job. This is why car prices are so high.
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       #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by gdbaker65 View Post
    One main reason the auto industry has sunk, is because of the union. I wish I had a $80 an hour blue collar job. This is why car prices are so high.
    Agreed.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by gdbaker65 View Post
    One main reason the auto industry has sunk, is because of the union. I wish I had a $80 an hour blue collar job. This is why car prices are so high.
    Another good reason why they need to move auto manufacturing to Honduras, you only need to pay them $10 a day. Let's make a list of all the people we can easily exploit and send all our manufacturing there.
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  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by gdbaker65 View Post
    One main reason the auto industry has sunk, is because of the union. I wish I had a $80 an hour blue collar job. This is why car prices are so high.
    Huh? Putting aside your inflated wage reference, so what about the cars coming out of non union plants? Are they....cheaper? I've never heard Toyota or Honda make that claim. Also, being non union, don't they generally pay their employees less? So why do you think they charge you more for the car? Incidently, don't get side tracked talking about "quality" issues either, we are talking about unions, wages and costs.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
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  16. #76  
    These people being exploited? Do they really get paid $10 a day for this in Honduras or just not $80 dollars a day or whatever the going rate is in a union auto factory in the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Another good reason why they need to move auto manufacturing to Honduras, you only need to pay them $10 a day. Let's make a list of all the people we can easily exploit and send all our manufacturing there.
  17. #77  
    Why invest in a a company with high labor rates when one can invest in a similar company that has lower labor rates. You invest, you want your money to work. What is wrong with wanting your investment to work at its best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Huh? Putting aside your inflated wage reference, so what about the cars coming out of non union plants? Are they....cheaper? I've never heard Toyota or Honda make that claim. Also, being non union, don't they generally pay their employees less? So why do you think they charge you more for the car? Incidently, don't get side tracked talking about "quality" issues either, we are talking about unions, wages and costs.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Another good reason why they need to move auto manufacturing to Honduras, you only need to pay them $10 a day. Let's make a list of all the people we can easily exploit and send all our manufacturing there.
    America better grasp the idea of globalization, because it is coming weather we like it or not. Companies compete worldwide now.

    The labor costs for manufacturing keep going down and the unions want wages to still go up. Hourly wages have to be cut to compete. It's either that or the item is assembled in Honduras.
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  19. Micael's Avatar
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       #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Another good reason why they need to move auto manufacturing to Honduras, you only need to pay them $10 a day. Let's make a list of all the people we can easily exploit and send all our manufacturing there.
    I'm always amazed at the twist perspective puts on things. You see it as big business exploiting a poor worker, I see it as an opportunity offered to someone looking for work.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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       #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Huh? Putting aside your inflated wage reference....
    His wage reference is precisely the point. By the time you add in all the bennies and guarantees the union worker gets over the non-union worker, it probably exceeds his estimate.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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