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  1. #21  
    I do not support democracy in the work place at all. I do support the worker having the right to organize and the secret ballot associated with it. Too many bosses means nothing gets done efficiently. The owner(s) set the top goals, the management team gets the ball rolling and the employee (me) does the job.

    I also do not want a union telling me I can or cannot do something - that is the function of management.

    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Calling me a hack is bit much don't you think?

    So you don't believe in democracy in the workplace? The workers vote for a Union shop, and you reject the democratic vote?
  2. #22  
    My objection: the federal instution sets the standard and once that standard is set, nothing changes. In Great Britian is employer provided insurance taxed as income?

    "The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence or NICE is a special health authority of the National Health Service (NHS) in England and Wales. It was set up as the National Institute for Clinical Excellence in 1999, and on 1 April 2005 joined with the Health Development Agency to become the new National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (still abbreviated as NICE).

    NICE publishes clinical appraisals of whether particular treatments should be considered worthwhile by the NHS. These appraisals are based primarily on cost-effectiveness."

    Quality adjusted life years - goodness the conotations have no limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Not the government, NICE. And what's so different from your Health Insurance company doing that anyway? It's not like the Peoples Republic of England has outlawed private health care either, for that matter.

    Oddly enough, the NHS is pretty popular with the vast majority of the people who pay for it too.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I do not support democracy in the work place at all. I do support the worker having the right to organize and the secret ballot associated with it. Too many bosses means nothing gets done efficiently. The owner(s) set the top goals, the management team gets the ball rolling and the employee (me) does the job.
    That's the democracy I was talking about in the workplace. The workers voting on union representation.


    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    ...I also do not want a union telling me I can or cannot do something - that is the function of management.
    This is the confusion that keeps coming up. The union and the worker are not two separate units. The union is you the worker.
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  4. Micael's Avatar
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       #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    What do you consider yourself?
    I've not really found a single platform that I could identify with. Not helpful, I know. I vote on issues after research and soul searching. I'm far from Republican though. You just keep catching me on topics where I may be aligned with them. For future thread references, heres a rough sketch of the sides I'll most likely take:

    I'm for gay marriage and feel that the fed has no business with it (I think thats a civil right), I'm not a Christian, against late term abortions, pro deregulation, for social support of arts and music, feel that supreme court justices should be strict constitutionalists and never legislate from the bench, I'm against centralized federal control of anything except defense, infrastructure, and emergency response. Labor unions should be abolished. I disliked just about as many things that Bush did as I liked (which is on par with what I thought of Clinton, btw). You'll take my gun from my cold dead fingers. Oh, and I love Star Trek, LoTR, WoW, warm fuzzy puppies, and long walks on the beach.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    ..and look at the auto workers, these low life's want to make a middle class income of $25 an hour. Sorry, you can blame them for the car design, they don't design them, they only assemble them.
    You may be talking about the actual "wage" on their paycheck but that it actually COST the company is something entirely different.

    GM sells vehicles. Every penny they spend is related directly to the production of their product...what those workers produce. Every vehicle that rows off the line must pay (aside from resources that go into a vehicle and the factories) each workers salary and their "free" health care and other benefits. (PLUS the "free" health care of every retiree and their dependents. PLUS the retiree pensions.) All of that must be taken out of each vehicle that they sell. That raises cost of the product above the competition that doesn't have such high employee costs. That lowers sales.

    Adding it all together, the worker may "make" $25/hour, but the cost to the company is over $70/hour for that worker. The worker may never see the cash, but they see the benefits of that cash.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    This is the confusion that keeps coming up. The union and the worker are not two separate units. The union is you the worker.
    I can't help but see that as an example of someone buying into the union's marketing and glossing over what the union is actually doing.

    As the name implies, a union takes many and makes it one. This eliminates variance. This eliminates competition. Eventually, it eliminates survival.

    If all of our ancestors had fallen in line with the president of 'Poo Flingers Union' and decided not to walk upright, we wouldn't have this message board to argue over such things as this
  7. Micael's Avatar
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       #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    This is the confusion that keeps coming up. The union and the worker are not two separate units. The union is you the worker.
    We aren't the ones that are confused, believe. Seriously, palandri, but that sounds like a brain washed saying. This country is about the individual, and individual rights. This whole "collective union" think thing is about socialism (and I mean that term in the nicest possible way).
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    You may be talking about the actual "wage" on their paycheck but that it actually COST the company is something entirely different.

    GM sells vehicles. Every penny they spend is related directly to the production of their product...what those workers produce. Every vehicle that rows off the line must pay (aside from resources that go into a vehicle and the factories) each workers salary and their "free" health care and other benefits. (PLUS the "free" health care of every retiree and their dependents. PLUS the retiree pensions.) All of that must be taken out of each vehicle that they sell. That raises cost of the product above the competition that doesn't have such high employee costs. That lowers sales.

    Adding it all together, the worker may "make" $25/hour, but the cost to the company is over $70/hour for that worker. The worker may never see the cash, but they see the benefits of that cash.
    I fully understand there is a benefit package. I simply didn't want to confuse the issue.

    I could quote my whole benefit package and what you would see in addition to healthcare and retirement money. I give money for each hour I work to the Apprentice school, so we can have a professional trained work force and continuing education. I give money for each hour I work into a Drug Testing Program, so we can maintain a drug free work environment.
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by brett.g View Post
    I can't help but see that as an example of someone buying into the union's marketing and glossing over what the union is actually doing.

    As the name implies, a union takes many and makes it one. This eliminates variance. This eliminates competition. Eventually, it eliminates survival.

    If all of our ancestors had fallen in line with the president of 'Poo Flingers Union' and decided not to walk upright, we wouldn't have this message board to argue over such things as this
    You just proved my point. People keep looking at the Union as a separate entity from the worker and it's not. It's at a grassroots level with each local. If we don't like what the president of Union is doing, we can vote him out in a heartbeat.
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    You just proved my point. People keep looking at the Union as a separate entity from the worker and it's not. It's at a grassroots level with each local. If we don't like what the president of Union is doing, we can vote him out in a heartbeat.
    What options does the company have when said union collectively makes a poor and selfish decision that will harm the company?

    I didn't disagree with your point, just that you were championing a slogan. Its very similar to how successful the Obama campaigns slogan 'yes we can', which was lifted from 'Bob the builder' was... you get people on board with something catchy and they don't pay attention to the rest of what is going on.
  11. ardoreal's Avatar
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    #31  
    Unions are retarded. Where I work the union's ONLY concern is getting bodies into the company and staying there so they can collect dues. There are no other concerns, they don't negotiate or advocate for the workers other than haggling the company to keep wages artificially inflated.

    The Union burns itself (as do all other unions) by advocating for people that don't work and are not merited to stay employed. Any entity that advocates for losers burns itself and all the people it claims to serve, and by logical conclusion is a greater disservice to both the worker and the corporation as a whole.

    There is no refuting this, nor arguing it, as I have the perspective of a union worker my insight is not subject to conjecture but observation and fact. Union workers that advocate for their Unions are just trying to keep the gravy train afloat and are deluded. Our local leader makes these grandiose claims about how "Unions are the only reason there is a middle class in America" to which I make the argument that Unions have destroyed the middle class in America by not functioning as they should.

    When workers do not work, the Union should be in a bigger hurry to kick the loser out the door than the corporation is, not saving his job.

    You do not help the population by giving the working's profit and tax to the non-working, this principle is universal in nature.

    For a prime example, my employer just completed a $40m retrofit, and did it all through contractors. We have cleanup contractors, and tons of general labor contractors because the union mechanics are so lax at work and management has had to fight the union to get rid of them. So, they simply stop hiring mechanics and contract the labor out. In our next contract renegotiation the biggest point of contention is the number of contractors vs union workers onsite. We're a public utility, we have a mission that will be completed one way or the other, equipment must function for the electricity to flow, contractors become more and more involved every year. They get paid less, they have virtually no benefits, and I'm sure those workers would gladly be hired on as full-on employees for great pay, benefits, and such. However, once they got the job they'd quickly realize that the Union will maintain their position regardless of their work performance.

    The only times I've ever seen people fired it's for showing up completely drunk and sexual harassment. Nobody has ever been terminated for gross negligence, incompetence, misconduct, or policy violations in the entire history of the plant being online (which is 30 years).

    The Union has sufficiently destroyed its own power base, by simply behaving like all Unions do. This has contributed to, on a broad spectrum, outsourcing, increased imports for manufactured goods, imported steelworks, and lots of other types of jobs. The result? The bulk of jobs being absolutely useless, underinsured patients, low wages, low quality of living standard, the highest nationwide bad debt in our country's history, you know...the basis of the socio-economic collapse of an entire civilization.

    This leads me to conclude unequivocally that, second to money, unions are the root of all evil.
    Last edited by Ardoreal; 06/18/2009 at 02:30 PM.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    We aren't the ones that are confused, believe. Seriously, palandri, but that sounds like a brain washed saying. This country is about the individual, and individual rights. This whole "collective union" think thing is about socialism (and I mean that term in the nicest possible way).
    Businesses bring unions on themselves. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it in my mind. I could tell you a hundred different stories I have heard from Union Organizers, but it always comes down to the same root. They get called into a factory or workplace by disgruntled workers. Now if the owners decide to try and fight the Union, the organizer knows he's going to win. If the owner decide to start communicating with the workers. Listening to their concerns and actually gets them involved with improving work conditions and productivity, the organizer knows he's not going to win.

    It all goes back to the Hawthorne Study, where Westinghouse was trying to
    find ways to increase productivity, they formed employee committees to help them with the project and submit suggestions. No matter Westinghouse did, or what suggestion they implemented (ie, More lighting or less lighting, as an example), it increased productivity. What Westinghouse discovered was that communication with their employees was the best tool for increasing productivity.
    Last edited by palandri; 06/19/2009 at 12:35 AM.
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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by brett.g View Post
    What options does the company have when said union collectively makes a poor and selfish decision that will harm the company?

    I didn't disagree with your point, just that you were championing a slogan. Its very similar to how successful the Obama campaigns slogan 'yes we can', which was lifted from 'Bob the builder' was... you get people on board with something catchy and they don't pay attention to the rest of what is going on.
    Nowadays it's a very smart idea for the workers/union and the owners to sign a binding arbitration agreement. If something comes up that they can't agree on, it going to binding arbitration. The arbitrators are preselected by both the workers/union and the owners as being fair.

    We, and the electrical contractors in my local have signed a binding arbitration agreement. You will never see us go on strike or have a work stoppage.
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  14. Micael's Avatar
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       #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I could tell you a hundred different stories I have heard from Union Organizers....
    What a surprise that you heard these stories from Union Organizers!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. Micael's Avatar
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       #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Businesses bring unions on themselves. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it in my mind. I could tell you a hundred different stories I have heard from Union Organizers, but it always comes down to the same root. They get called into a factory or workplace by disgruntled workers.
    Disgruntled workers? palandri, we now have labor laws and more than enough lawyers running around dying for cases to take. Unions are obsolete! Totally. They aren't called, they are instead known for infiltrating and courting workers.... I've been there and seen how they operate. It's about power and control, not about helping a disgruntled employee.
    Now if the owners decide to try and fight the Union, the organizer knows he's going to win. If the owner decide to start communicating with the workers. Listening to their concerns and actually gets them involved with improving work conditions and productivity, the organizer knows he's not going to win.
    And the third option is the workers can leave and find a job where the will get what they want or need and the business falls down on production and dies.

    It all goes back to the Hawthorne Study, where Westinghouse was trying to
    find ways to increase productivity, they formed employee committees to help them with the project and submit suggestions. No matter Westinghouse did, or what suggestion they implemented (ie, More lighting or less lighting, as an example), it increased productivity. What Westinghouse discovered was two communication with their employees was the best tool for increasing productivity.
    I've worked with and in many non-union organizations where the leaders were in touch with and responsive to their employees. But understand that there IS a bottom line. The point of the business is not to feed the employees and make their lives wonderful.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    We, and the electrical contractors in my local have signed a binding arbitration agreement. You will never see us go on strike or have a work stoppage.
    The UAW had the same agreements with GM and Chrysler. It ties a company up and makes it slow to react, and it gets crushed by more nimble competitors.
  17. Micael's Avatar
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       #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    Adding it all together, the worker may "make" $25/hour, but the cost to the company is over $70/hour for that worker. The worker may never see the cash, but they see the benefits of that cash.
    They are, in fact, making $70/hour.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    They are, in fact, making $70/hour.
    Get realistic. What do they see on their paycheck every week to live on?
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    Get realistic. What do they see on their paycheck every week to live on?
    They see that they DON'T have to use their take-home money to pay for doctor visits, exams, prescriptions, etc. That's money that they know they can apply to other areas. If, after several months, you finally pay off a bill, you will start to have more money in your pocket even though your salary remains the same.

    Most people pay 20% of their health care costs (via co-pay) out of their own pocket. For years, GM employees didn't pay even that 20%. The company funded it. Well, consumers funded it by by paying more for the vehicles...
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by semprini View Post
    They see that they DON'T have to use their take-home money to pay for doctor visits, exams, prescriptions, etc. That's money that they know they can apply to other areas. If, after several months, you finally pay off a bill, you will start to have more money in your pocket even though your salary remains the same.

    Most people pay 20% of their health care costs (via co-pay) out of their own pocket. For years, GM employees didn't pay even that 20%. The company funded it. Well, consumers funded it by by paying more for the vehicles...
    That's not how it works. My health insurance is purchased by my union. Each year there's a total wage and benefit dollar amount put forward. We decide on how it's distributed. If it cost $1.50 more per hour worked to keep health insurance, then we put $1.50 of the total wage and benefit package towards it.
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