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  1. efudd's Avatar
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    #61  
    Seriously - people need to ACTUALLY READ the story before they go off all half cocked without all the facts. (althrough there are some funny ones here- laughing)

    It has nothing to do with the PRE specifically. As above it's about rural customers getting hosed regularly. And what to do about it. Perhaps the Pre prompted it- first the little guys got hosed by Apple and ATT, then the Rim and verizon deal, and now even 3rd place sprint gets a big exclusive. Maybe Bo and Luke looked up and though "gee are we ever going to get access to a cool device?"
  2. efudd's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    They are sure getting the attention of congress at this point.

    Verizon and AT&T deny collusion on texting prices by Reuters: Yahoo! Tech


    .
    collusion is not a monopoly. Read the dictionary- it's between TWO or more parties. Monopoly= a single entiry that has control. Two doesn't equal one.

    people Throw out the word monopoly, and rights, and force way too much. There can be legit beefs for sure.

    But there are is no nationwide monopoly- there are regulated carriers in competition, no one has a right to a darn cell phone- show me the place in the constittion, and no one is forcing anyone to do anything- you have a choice- go someplace else or live without a cell phone (gasp!). You have 30 days to back out, if they do in fact force new terms on you then you can leave.

    Beyond that monopolies aren't even by definition evil. Properly regulated monopolies can be helpfull. ATT wired the whole darn country with phones before there were paved roads everywhere. Water utilities give people clean water. Power utilities provide people electricity to live more productive lives.
  3. efudd's Avatar
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    #63  
    Senators Want To Grill Wireless Carriers, Manufacturers -- Wireless Business -- InformationWeek

    The senators' letter also focused on the possible impact of exclusive carrier-manufacture deals in rural America and noted that the Rural Cellular Association filed for information on the carrier-manufacturer arrangements on May 20, 2008. The senators indicated that the RCA filing has produced a valuable store of information on the issue
    Senators urge FCC to probe handset exclusivity deals - FierceWireless

    The issue has gained steam in recent months. In May, the Rural Cellular Association, which represents 80 small and rural wireless carriers, filed a petition asking the FCC to investigate the matter. The group argued such deals pose serious challenges to smaller carriers unable to get access to exclusive handsets.
    here's the earlier filing from the rural carriers to the FCC with the beef:
    http://www.rca-usa.org/associations/...ity-060309.pdf

    It has been more than one year since RCA filed its Petition for Rulemaking. Over
    that year, consumers have been denied access to many new and innovative devices
    because they are not – or, in many cases, cannot be – customers of the large carrier
    possessing the exclusivity agreement for a given device.
    I added underline for emphasis
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    apparently there were a lot of people asleep in economics and history.

    GM and chrysler died cause they SUCK and have been making crappy business decisions for 30+ years. The current recession (which the lack of finanacial regulation certainly was a major factor) merely put the last of hundreds and hundreds of nails in their coffin.

    if you suck then people go elsewhere- in this case they went to foreign car companies. Many of whom made their cars in the US but just had better minds at the top of the company making decisions.
    Actually, that's pretty far from the truth. In 1935, the Wagner Act was signed into law and essentially made it impossible for a company like GM or Chrysler to negotiate effectively with powerful unions like the UAW. Because of that, their cost structure was driven to the point where it's basically become impossible for them to compete with foreign automakers. If there's any one group of people who are responsible for GM's and Chrysler's destruction, it's the "workers." Of course, Obama's paid them back for their irrational behavior and their support for his election (is that redundant?) by giving them large shares of both companies.

    In addition, there have been numerous regulations that have also impacted the American auto maker's ability to compete, including the CAFE standards that have driven up the cost of R&D and manufacturing of American cars, and for well over 20 years there's been a 25% tariff on foreign truck imports.

    Ever wonder why American automakers love selling trucks and SUVs? It's not only because they're in great demand; it's also and perhaps primarily because their trucks are automatically 25% less expensive than imported Toyotas or Nissans (or whomever's). It's only been recently that foreign makers have been able to overcome this disadvantage and effectively compete (by building trucks domestically). A 25% tariff is obviously a tremendous inducement for making a particular product (and, for not making others).

    Now, certainly, the automakers themselves have some culpability when it comes to those tariffs. But all of the above--the UAW's incredible power, CAFE, the tariffs--are government's doing and yet another profound example of the destructive power of government intervention in the economy. At best, GM and Chrysler are examples of the private side of the mixed economy--part free, part controlled--that we've suffered under for over 100 years. I don't like them a bit, and will never buy another American car unless it's made by Ford, but their failure has not been the result of simple incompetence.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    That's the single most uninformed statement I've read all month.
    Then you haven't read very much. Read about the (lack of) enforcement of regulation of the financial and banking industries, and then we can have conversation. BTW, I used to work for one of those (non) regulators. I think I probably know a bit more than you do.
    Bob Meyer
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  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    If you're a true Keynesian economist, then you're contributing to the destruction of the American economy.
    ROFLOL!!!! Do you even know what Keynesian theory is? I seriously doubt it, based on this statement. Just how much economics have you actually studied?
    Bob Meyer
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  7. efudd's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Actually, that's pretty far from the truth. In 1935, the Wagner Act was signed into law and essentially made it impossible for a company like GM or Chrysler to negotiate effectively with powerful unions like the UAW. Because of that, their cost structure was driven to the point where it's basically become impossible for them to compete with foreign automakers. If there's any one group of people who are responsible for GM's and Chrysler's destruction, it's the "workers." Of course, Obama's paid them back for their irrational behavior and their support for his election (is that redundant?) by giving them large shares of both companies.

    In addition, there have been numerous regulations that have also impacted the American auto maker's ability to compete, including the CAFE standards that have driven up the cost of R&D and manufacturing of American cars, and for well over 20 years there's been a 25% tariff on foreign truck imports.

    Ever wonder why American automakers love selling trucks and SUVs? It's not only because they're in great demand; it's also and perhaps primarily because their trucks are automatically 25% less expensive than imported Toyotas or Nissans (or whomever's). It's only been recently that foreign makers have been able to overcome this disadvantage and effectively compete (by building trucks domestically). A 25% tariff is obviously a tremendous inducement for making a particular product (and, for not making others).

    Now, certainly, the automakers themselves have some culpability when it comes to those tariffs. But all of the above--the UAW's incredible power, CAFE, the tariffs--are government's doing and yet another profound example of the destructive power of government intervention in the economy. At best, GM and Chrysler are examples of the private side of the mixed economy--part free, part controlled--that we've suffered under for over 100 years. I don't like them a bit, and will never buy another American car unless it's made by Ford, but their failure has not been the result of simple incompetence.
    thanks for the history lesson. I'll defer to you since you seem to be the resident economist. But I dont think we can just dismiss the incompetance of management. I'm sure the UAW is a major problem. But I dont think the only problem. Had management made good choices and made better decisions they could have overcome the UAW problem. If it was a structural problem that no one could beat out than Ford would be dead now too.

    If labor is the major issue (and it very well may be) they could have figured out long ago how to control labor, either by making them a partner, spending the resources to lobby the government to "correct" the wagnor act, or whatever else needed to be done. If it was obvious for the past 70-80 years then management should have acted. Certainly the first time chrylser almost sucked to death in the 70's they could have used the oppuntunity to correct the structural issues.

    But anyway- we agree it's NOT deregulation that are the major causes of the death of chrysler and GM.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Thanks re: the blog.

    Re: the Keynesian bit, it's Keynesians who support massive deficit spending, aggressive monetary policy (well, that's not so much classical Keynes, but still), government intervention, etc. The banking/finance/lending crisis was caused by the Fed's easy money policies, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, the Community Reinvestment Act, etc. etc., all in an industry that's one of the most heavily regulated in the world. It's remarkable that so many people think this crisis was caused by a lack of regulations, when there are literally 10's of thousands of regulations on the books that govern our financial industry.
    Gee, and the fraud perpetrated by the mortgage industry had nothing to do with it? Nor the unbridled, unregulated gambling that goes by the more polite name of hedge funds? Nor, I suppose, the big financial companies manipulating oil markets to drive prices higher and higher in search of short-term profits, nor investing in mortgage backed securities that even a cursory examination would have shown weren't worth 10 cents on the dollar? And I guess we'll ignore the big brokerage firms using their supposedly independent analysts to tout instruments that lined the pockets of those firms and analysts? And let's overlook the republican appointed comptroller of the currency filing suit to prevent states from enforcing stiffer regulations on mortgage activities than the OCC, which managed to miss every excess in the banking industry. Oh, yes, it was excessive regulation that let the banks get out of control and caused them to lose 100s of billions of dollars. Yeah, right!

    Oh, yeah, it's all the fault of Keynesians and liberals. If you ignore the fact that most of this breakdown in the system occurred during the 8 years of the Bush administration, and while both houses of Congress were controlled by Republicans.

    I understand your political philosophy, but to support your arguments you need to overlook so much recent history I'm surprised you can actually maintain the fiction.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by efudd View Post
    apparently there were a lot of people asleep in economics and history.

    GM and chrysler died cause they SUCK and have been making crappy business decisions for 30+ years. The current recession (which the lack of finanacial regulation certainly was a major factor) merely put the last of hundreds and hundreds of nails in their coffin.

    if you suck then people go elsewhere- in this case they went to foreign car companies. Many of whom made their cars in the US but just had better minds at the top of the company making decisions.
    That's the common wisdom, but only partially true. People love to say the U.S. companies weren't making products people wanted, but the facts say otherwise. Americans WANTED big SUVs until gas hit $4 a gallon. Big trucks were among the hottest sellers for Toyota and Nissan, too. (The Prius sold pretty poorly until gas shot through the roof.) GM was actually improving, both it's products and sales, until the bottom dropped out of the credit markets.

    Chrysler, in spite of how badly Mercedes screwed them, was doing ok in terms of sales until the market for big trucks collapsed. Probably not well enough to survive unchanged, but it was still the collapse of the credit markets that drove them over the edge.

    Oh, btw: Even Toyota, Honda and Nissan lost money last year. But I suppose that's because their products suck, too, and car buyer went elsewhere to buy new cars. Or wait, maybe it because Americans just about STOPPED buying cars, of any brand.

    I know it's a lot of work, but you ought to do some research and look at sales figures over the last few years before you open you mouth. But it's easier to believe the sound bites that pass for news any more than it is to actually read and analyze what's happening, I suppose, so feel comfortable in your myths.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  10. #70  
    I love reading about this. It seems to me that the pre is a big game changer. I really do hope they start to figure out that all these cellular phone companies are super shady in how they work.
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I understand your political philosophy, but to support your arguments you need to overlook so much recent history I'm surprised you can actually maintain the fiction.
    Not overlooking anything, and very aware of the truth (and falsehoods) that you mention in our post. And incidentally, I probably dislike Bush as much as or more than you. I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal, which perhaps gives me a bit more of an objective perspective.
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  12. #72  
    The lawmakers announced their inquiry in an e-mailed news release Monday.

    (They didn't care when it was only

    ATT and iPhone)[/QUOTE]


    Well you can bet that some big phone company is in these senators ear, the only reason they are involved is because some SIG has whined about it not being fair that sprint has esclusive rights to the pre,and how sprint is going to steal customers.. Wherr were they with the iphone, either AT&T or verizon is really worried that their profits will go down and called on their partners in crime to put a stop to it
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Actually, that's pretty far from the truth. In 1935, the Wagner Act was signed into law and essentially made it impossible for a company like GM or Chrysler to negotiate effectively with powerful unions like the UAW....
    LOL! Well, we'll never agree, I am a Union Electrician. Aside from that, I do think you are good guy!
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  14. #74  
    peestandingup: Dont make it sound like its just two fine town folks signing a contract to sell bread & baked goods to one another or something. These are giant telecom companies that are using a lot of unfair tactics to get people locked in to them for years. Sure you can break it & go somewhere else, but there aint that many places to go. Having an exclusive when you're already basically a monopoly is BS.
    Well, at least this ain't like Canada with 3-4 years contracts.
    http://forums.webosnation.com/members/stargate-albums-my-pre-picture960-moving-pre.gif
  15. #75  
    driver231610;The lawmakers announced their inquiry in an e-mailed news release Monday.

    (They didn't care when it was only

    ATT and iPhone)


    Well you can bet that some big phone company is in these senators ear, the only reason they are involved is because some SIG has whined about it not being fair that sprint has esclusive rights to the pre,and how sprint is going to steal customers.. Wherr were they with the iphone, either AT&T or verizon is really worried that their profits will go down and called on their partners in crime to put a stop to it
    I thought the same thing, it's funny how nobody complained when Ma' Bell got the iPhone, and now (that the Pre is in Sprint) how convenient it is for them to B***h about it.
    http://forums.webosnation.com/members/stargate-albums-my-pre-picture960-moving-pre.gif
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    LOL! Well, we'll never agree, I am a Union Electrician. Aside from that, I do think you are good guy!
    Hey, don't misunderstand me. I've got nothing against unions per se. It's perfectly reasonable for skilled people to get together and bargain collectively. I simply believe that, absent force or fraud on either side, government should stay out of the relationship.

    And you're pretty swell yourself! (Watch out. We'll be hugging next.)
    Treo 600 > Treo 650 > HTC Mogul (*****!) > HTC Touch Pro (***** squared!) > PRE! > Epic
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by wynand32 View Post
    Hey, don't misunderstand me. I've got nothing against unions per se. It's perfectly reasonable for skilled people to get together and bargain collectively. I simply believe that, absent force or fraud on either side, government should stay out of the relationship.

    And you're pretty swell yourself! (Watch out. We'll be hugging next.)
    My Phone & My Wife's Phone Two Unlocked GSM Treo Pro's

  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by STARGATE View Post
    I thought the same thing, it's funny how nobody complained when Ma' Bell got the iPhone, and now (that the Pre is in Sprint) how convenient it is for them to B***h about it.
    It might also be because consumer backlash against AT&T is higher than before. From ARS Technica article:

    "The FCC should review the issue on a number of criteria, wrote the Senators, including whether exclusivity agreements are becoming increasingly prevalent, whether they are restricting consumer choice with respect to handsets or geographic region, and whether these agreements place limitations on a consumer's ability to take full advantage of handset technologies ("such as the ability to send multimedia messages or the ability to 'tether' a device to a computer for internet use," wrote the Senators). The FCC should also consider whether such agreements manipulate the competitive marketplace by inhibiting the ability of smaller carriers to compete, and whether the agreements play a role in discouraging handset innovation. "

    " That line about the MMSes or the ability to tether does seem a little too tailored to the recently announced limitations that AT&T will be temporarily imposing on the new iPhone OS 3.0, too—the software is capable of both features, but is limited by the carriers that support the iPhone."

    Senators press FCC to examine exclusive cell phone deals - Ars Technica

    Lots of people are very unhappy about no MMS or tethering offered for AT&T iPhone users. AT&T says they'll do it when they feel like it, basically. The time frame they give is too vague.
    HP has officially ruined it's own platform and kicked webOS loyalists and early TouchPad adopters to the curb. You think after you drop it like a hot potato and mention it made no money and is costing you money, anyone else wants it??? Way to go HP!!

    And some people are fools to keep believing their hype. HP has shown they will throw webOS under the bus and people are still having faith in them??? News flash: if it's own company won't stand behind it, it's finished!
  19. Micael's Avatar
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    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by palandri View Post
    I guess you weren't around when they started to enforce antitrust laws. At one point in time ITT got so big, that they not only monopolized the telecommunications business, they started monopolizing other sections of the economy. At one point in time when you bought a package of Hostess Twinkies, it's said made by Consolidated Bakeries, a subsidiary of ITT.

    If you are a true Keynesian economist, you know that monopolization is never a good thing. That's what they are looking into with cell phones.
    I don't think monopoly was the issue here. Its about product envy
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #80  
    This whole argument seems sort of silly to me. Sprint pays big bucks for exclusive rights to a product. The manufacturer benefits. They, in turn, develop even more innovative products, so ultimately the consumer benefits. So some of us may be stuck with a different carrier because of a contract. We made that choice, and we still have options to buy out of that contract and switch to the other carrier for that product. Looking for the government to "regulate" will kill innovation and slow development. It always has. It's not about monopolies. Monopolies crush competition; something this market is not lacking in.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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