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  1. #61  
    Well, we have to just disagree. All you offer is handwringing and questions. Americans want action and solutions. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.

    Frankly, "they" should have thought about your "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" saying before they killed six thousand American civilians. That's a two way street. A good article addressing that same point can be found at

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/631859.asp

    I also feel no need to respect the culture of others when they violate very basic norms. No offense Homer, but someone with your tolerant, humanistic approach to things would doubtless be killed if you lived in Afghanistan. You think we need to respect a culture that doesn't respect ours, or anyone else's for that matter? I don't.

    BTW, I have a degree in international relations, and have spent a fair amount of time abroad (not in the Middle East though). I follow foreign news outlets, to the extent practical here. So I at least have a pretty good idea of what's going on beyond our borders.
  2. #62  
    Frankly, "they" should have thought about your "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" saying before they killed six thousand American civilians. That's a two way street.
    So, just because your little brother hits you, you hit him back? Two wrongs don't make a right.

    [/quote]I also feel no need to respect the culture of others when they violate very basic norms.[/quote]

    That's just 'but he started it first' crying.

    No offense Homer, but someone with your tolerant, humanistic approach to things would doubtless be killed if you lived in Afghanistan. You think we need to respect a culture that doesn't respect ours, or anyone else's for that matter? I don't.
    What are you talking about? Are you saying Afghans are intolerant terrorists? Terrorists make up an extremely small segment of that country. Don't judge an entire culture on a few terrorists.

    I'm not really disagreeing with your overall opinion that these people need to be punished. I just think we're concentrating on one aspect of the entire situation: they blew up the WTC. As terrible of a crime as that is, it's only one part of a much larger relationship our country has with the middle east. We're being a bit one-sided on this whole issue.

    But, ultimately, we probably should just agree to disagree.

    Which is OK. And maybe what we should be doing with the middle east.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  3. #63  
    Originally posted by VTL
    You think we need to respect a culture that doesn't respect ours, or anyone else's for that matter? I don't.
    so, most of the world shouldn't respect us, since we (the cultural we) don't respect them. to wit: Russia, France, Germany, England, Scotland, Yugoslavia, China, Afghanistan, India ...
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  4. #64  
    Homer you are more tolerant of the punks that deface the flag than the school that punished "their" poor actions. And you seem to be more tolerant of the terrorists than their accusers. What gives?
    Last edited by george_vc; 09/22/2001 at 12:39 AM.
  5. #65  
    Yorick:

    I don't think that's a fair characterization - I certainly haven't ever said I don't respect the cultures of the countries you list. Sure, they all have issues, as do we. But I don't think it's fair to say we (or I) don't respect those countries.

    My point is, it is fine and good to call for tolerance of other cultures. But it only really make sense when those cultures practice tolerance too. Of the ones you list, all except Afghanistan (and maybe China) do to one degree or another, particularly the true democracies on the list.

    This gets back to my point to Homer - the Taliban don't tolerate any dissent or deviation from their version of truth. Those who do deviate are punished, even put to death. To preach we should tolerate their intolerance makes little sense. I think Ben Franklin once said that if you act like sheep, you shouldn't be surprised if you get eaten by wolves (I'm paraphrasing here).

    And yeah Homer, when my brother hit me I darn well hit him back. That way he thought twice about doing it again next time. I did him a favor too - if he somehow got the idea he could hit people with impunity, sooner or later he was going to strike someone less tolerant than myself, who might really wallop him.
  6. #66  
    Homer you are more tolerant of the punks that deface the flag than the school that punished "their" poor actions. And you seem to be more tolerant of the terrorists than their accusers. What gives?
    There's a difference between 'tolerance' and 'not jumping to conclusions'. I never said I advocated what the students did or what the terrorist did. I just said that there MAY be reasons why these things happened, and perhaps it is in our best interest to find out why first.

    There's seems to be a very dangerous streak of hate flowing through a lot of america right now and it's being disguised as patriosm. It's OK to hate these terrorists...what they did is a serious crime against humanity. But let's not loose sight of the bigger picture here...we're a part of this planet...not just a part of the US. We need to understand the global situation and our part in it.

    This gets back to my point to Homer - the Taliban don't tolerate any dissent or deviation from their version of truth. Those who do deviate are punished, even put to death. To preach we should tolerate their intolerance makes little sense.
    I agree completely. But we can still oppose the Taliban without having to go to war. There's a lot we can do to prevent unjust governments without having to be the bully on the block.

    And yeah Homer, when my brother hit me I darn well hit him back. That way he thought twice about doing it again next time.
    Did he never hit you again?
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  7. #67  
    Well, this is my last post on this topic because we are going around in circles here. You want to have the last word after this, go ahead.

    Again, you continue to criticize the current Administration's approach without offering any constructive (or even coherent) alternatives. What, exactly, do you suggest we do to oppose the Taliban? Call them nasty names?

    Impose sanctions? Already done, and it just punishes the poor saps who are oppressed by the leadership already. Diplomacy? Hey, that's been tried in the past - they paid a lot of attention to world opinion before they blew up those ancient statues of Bhudda.

    The Taliban are currently sheltering an organization that has been proven (in court) to have been behind the bombing of the embassies in Africa, and is suspected based on strong evidence of having been behind the U.S.S. Cole bombing and the 9/11 attacks. Al Queda and bin Laden have sworn they will continue to kill Americans, making no distnictions between civilian and military targets. The Taliban refuse to turn them over for justice, or to dismantle their terror operation. As long as these folks are free, other Americans (indeed, folks from other nations who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time too) are at risk.

    They won't turn them over, because they like what they did. I heard a young Arab-American woman interviewed on NPR this morning. She said they hate us because of what we stand for, and pointed out that if she lived in Afghanistan she'd be beaten or worse because she sometimes doesn't cover her head - there's your "root cause." At this point, military action is necessary and justified.

    It's easy to carp Homer, and talk and talk and talk about finding the "cause" and pursuing unidentified "alternatives." It's hard to offer a real alternative that would work. You come up with one, let me know.

    Regarding my brother, number 1 the analogy is faulty when you are dealing with small kids or even teenagers. There's a big difference between two brothers and actors on the international stage. There's also a rather big difference between a shoving match and murdering 6,000+ men, women and even some children, the overwhelming majority of which were civilians. It was my mistake to even accept the bogus comparison for the sake of argument. But to answer your question, the last time he picked a fight with me when we were old enough for it to make a difference, yeah, I hit him hard enough that he didn't try it again. I hope America does the same here.

    'Nuff said.
  8. #68  
    You want to have the last word after this, go ahead.
    Nah...I'll let you have it (I don't think anyone is paying attention ot us anymore, anyways).

    It was a good debate, though, lot's of interesting perspectives were brought up...
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  9. #69  
    I know that some VC'ers don't like "Off Topic" posts, but I certainly have enjoyed the civilty and honesty with which most people posted in this thread. I know that I got something out of those who posted with opposite viewpoints, as I hope they got something out of mine. Even if no one changed their minds, I think it didn't hurt us to hear all sides--oh Lord, I'm sounding like homer!! (J/K homer, I very much appreciated your thoughtful posts.)
    Kelley
  10. #70  
    You are a scholar and a gentleman (at least I assme you are a guy). I disagree with a lot of what you said, but I agree it was a good debate.
  11. #71  
    You are a scholar and a gentleman (at least I assme you are a guy). I disagree with a lot of what you said, but I agree it was a good debate.
    Well, "scholar" may be stretching it a bit, but yea, I am a guy.

    And I'd have to say the same to most everyone else in here too. I always enjoy a civil debate that opens up my perspective to other's POVs.

    Even if we haven't changed anyone's minds, I think we all learned something from each other.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  12. #72  
    let's wait until they bring automatic weapons to school to express their hate to expel them....fools!
  13. #73  
    Hey! I did better than this a couple days ago.
    I resurrected a thread that was a worry worldwide.

    Y2K

    Maybe, subconsciously, we're all longing for days gone past, and so were digging up threads from years gone by.
    Just call me Berd.
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