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  1.    #1  
    Even if the masterminds of Tuesday's terrorist attacks get bomb to bits...they win. Think of all the "firsts" that took place and how bad thigns got:

    All FLights cancelled - Both in the U.S and in Canada
    President had to be kept aloft in Air Force one throughout the crisis
    Baseball games cancelled
    NFL games cancelled
    Stock Markets close for almost a week
    Entire U.S capital is evacuated (on Tuesday)

    The list goes on and on and on.

    I would have expected somethign like this to happen during a war with a major military power..not from a bunch of fanatics that hijacked and crashed four planes.

    The U.S will NEVER be the same after this incidence.
  2. #2  
    I agree.

    I think it is important for America to realize that we can't *win* this war...we can only try to stop it. And radical group that is willing to take their own lives in the name of their cause is a very dangerous and volatile group that has little to no logical rational behind their actions.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  3. #3  
    There already is enough misinformation going around that we should all try to get our facts straight before spreading more.

    President had to be kept aloft in Air Force one throughout the crisis
    This is not true. The only time the President was in Air Force One was for the short trip from Florida to Louisiana, them later in the day for the trip from the AF base in Louisiana to SAC headquarters in Omaha and then for the final time to return to DC. Thiese flights maybe totaled a few hours at the most.

    Entire U.S capital is evacuated (on Tuesday)
    Close, but still not true. The US Capitol building was evacuated from a bomb threat called in. The US capital of Washington, DC was never evacuated.

    I post this not to accuse anyone of anything but to remind us all that this is how rumors grow and expand and that we must not fall into that trap.
    Jonathan
  4. #4  
    "The U.S will NEVER be the same after this incidence."

    We are not defined by what happens to us, but by how we react to what happens to us.

    The U.S. was never the same after skateboards either.

    As to "winning the war", we're not in a war unless we have another country to be at war with and Congress issues a declaration of war. If this group wants to act in a hostile manner, I guess we could capitulate to whatever demands they wanted (if they ever declare them), but I don't think that's likely. Without destroying totally this group, I can't see how we could possibly "stop" this. I don't think talking softly is going to quiet this beast. I'm afraid that there will be more widows and orphans before we see any kind of closure.

    As a formerly active Marine I admit to a desire for a military strike at an appropriate target (when the perps are found), but that strikes directly against my beliefs as a committed Christian.

    Michael

    PS from WIRED today 9/14/01

    EPHEMERA...

    One-Track Minds
    Here's the dilemma: A runaway train will kill five people unless you flip a switch, sending it onto another track where it will kill only one. Most people say flipping the switch is moral. But what about pushing a passer-by onto the track to stop the train? Most people say that's not moral. That difference in response has long puzzled philosophers. Now research published in the journal Science shows that the key to tough moral judgments is emotion, not analytical reasoning. Princeton University researchers scanned volunteers' brains as they pondered ethical questions -- producing images where emotion-related areas of the brain literally lit up. According to psychologist Jonathan Haidt, "we carry out our lives as though our moral judgments are based on reason," but the study, he said, illustrates that people act on "gut feelings and make up reasons post hoc."

    Let's pray that those with the big sticks have good gut feelings....
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  5. #5  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    One-Track Minds
    Here's the dilemma: A runaway train will kill five people unless you flip a switch, sending it onto another track where it will kill only one. Most people say flipping the switch is moral. But what about pushing a passer-by onto the track to stop the train? Most people say that's not moral. That difference in response has long puzzled philosophers. Now research published in the journal Science shows that the key to tough moral judgments is emotion, not analytical reasoning. Princeton University researchers scanned volunteers' brains as they pondered ethical questions -- producing images where emotion-related areas of the brain literally lit up. According to psychologist Jonathan Haidt, "we carry out our lives as though our moral judgments are based on reason," but the study, he said, illustrates that people act on "gut feelings and make up reasons post hoc."

    Let's pray that those with the big sticks have good gut feelings....
    Well, if one puts any stock in Type theories, then 'thinkers' make up a really small portion of the population anyway (the Jungian/MBTI 'rationals' are less than 10% of the population), so their study really didn't necessarily prove anything. That's not even considering the fact that it only studied volunteers. No self-respecting Rational would give himself over as a guinea-pig.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #6  
    Another thing to think of is that I'm sure the terrorists didn't plan on the good that's come out of this tragedy. In my 38 years on this planet, and in the US, have never seen the country so patriotic and centric as it is now. Last night on CNN one commentator made a off the cuff comment saying that it's really weird that the person you would have been cutting off in your car on Monday, you're hugging today.

    I vividly remember the space shuttle tragedy, and that's the closest I've seen to this type of outpouring I'm witnessing now. Jeepers, the store can't even keep flags in stock. In my town, just driving through today, the houses that didn't have decorated trees, flags, or painted sheets as banners, were the vast minority. It actually brought a tear to my eye seeing one banner saying the simple words "...gave proof through the night that our flag was still there". Makes me damn proud to be here.

    Terrorists winning? I don't think so by a long shot. The inconveniences we will have to endure are far outweighted by the solidarity, fortitude, and compassion that's sprouted in the past 4 days... and keeps on growing.

    God Bless America! We are united once more!
  7. #7  
    Terrorists will never win no matter what the outcome of this tradegy turns out to be. If justice is not prevailed on earth it will be with god.
    God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.
  8. #8  
    Terrorists will never win no matter what the outcome of this tradegy turns out to be. If justice is not prevailed on earth it will be with god.
    But that's the issue. In their God's eyes, they dished out justice by killing Americans.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  9. #9  
    That may be what they believe while on earth, but I KNOW they are wrong. So even though they died believing they were serving god, thats not the case and the lord will bring them to justice.
    God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.
  10. #10  
    That may be what they believe while on earth, but I KNOW they are wrong. So even though they died believing they were serving god, thats not the case and the lord will bring them to justice.
    Give me a break.

    This kind of extreme 'god is on our site and hates your side and I am always right because my god said I was' trite is what causes these types of stupid wars.

    Just watch...you'll get pissed at me for saying that and say something back at me. I'll get all 'holier than though' on you and defend my stance and next thing you know, we'll both be at war with each other. (I'm a pacifist, though, so I'll let you win.)

    Besides, MY god can beat up YOUR god. So there.

    But hey, if you KNOW they are wrong, then so what...why are we worrying about going to war with them if God will take care of them in the end anyways?...

    (Which brings be to another little rant...if I see the 'god bless america' thing one more time I might just swear off organized religion all together. IF there is a god, wouldn't he be bless all of the people of the earth...INCLUDING the countries that these terrorists are from? And what about Allah, and Buddah, and Ron Hubbard, and Mother Nature, and all of the other higher beings that we have the freedom to worship in this country...why are we excluding those? Am I overreacting?)

    Ok...I've probably insulted enough people in those last few paragraphs already...let the flaming begin...

    (And, btw, it is all in the name of good, healthy debate...)
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  11. #11  
    Oh yea...and speaking of 'God's Will'...everyone needs to read what Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have to say on the tragedy:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Sep14.html

    Sometimes I'm embarrased to be an American...
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  12. #12  
    Homer, maybe I was unclear in what I said. But I think you were extremly out of line in what you said, and it was also extremly rude.
    I am actually a very sensible person, and am not very religous. Ive been to church three times, so I would really prefer not to get into a religous debate because it is for the most part unknown territory to me.

    God will take care of those responsibe for this, but it is necessary to go to war with or eliminate those responsibe so that something like this will never happen again.
    God bless the USA! The country I love, and will support at all costs.
  13. #13  
    Homer, maybe I was unclear in what I said. But I think you were extremly out of line in what you said, and it was also extremly rude.
    I know. It was a rant on my part. I believed in what I said, but I was trying to push buttons, too. It's just a debate...but I shouldn't be rude (actually, I was trying to be sarcastic, which is sometimes hard via text).

    I am actually a very sensible person, and am not very religous. Ive been to church three times, so I would really prefer not to get into a religous debate because it is for the most part unknown territory to me.
    That's fair. What got me was your comment:

    That may be what they believe while on earth, but I KNOW they are wrong.
    I took that as a religious stance...in that 'I KNOW god thinks they are wrong.' Which is clearly not what you said. I think you were saying that they were wrong in killing people. I'd have to agree with that.

    God will take care of those responsibe for this, but it is necessary to go to war with or eliminate those responsible so that something like this will never happen again.
    Well, that logic certainly makes sense, but it is an oversimplification of the issue. And one that I am very afraid that the Bush administration is making. If we go to war with any of these countries, we are basically doing the very thing that encouraged this attack on us. Plus, that is not going to stop terrorism. We'd have to destroy every fundamentalist islamic scattered throughout this planet bent on destroying america to stop terrorism in this country. I don't see that as a realistic proposition.

    The majority of my rant was due to the frustration I've been having these past few days with the realization that we are making this a VERY religous issue (at least that's what I am seeing through the media). Every news clip is of a christian church service. Bush is quoting christian beliefs. Every one is singing God bless america. Every commercial on TV is ending with 'God bless America'.

    I would have nothing wrong with any of this IF consideration were being given to all of the people of this country that may not be of Christian faith (including Islam, btw!)...but we seem to be ingnoring them. And this isn't what our country is about.

    In addition, the more we make this a 'mission in the name of god' war, the more we are becoming like the very terrorists that attacked us.

    Now this is nothing new to this country...we've long had a christian majority in this country, and, naturally, that would and has become a pervasive part of our culture. It's just been brought to the forefront of my mind these past few days and has only added to my personal frustration with organized religion and how it can do so much bad in this world all in the name of good.

    That and the fact that I've maybe gotten 8 hours of sleep this weekend is what has led to my long-winded rants on religion and war in a visor discussion board...
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  14. #14  
    "No self-respecting Rational would give himself over as a guinea-pig."

    Not even if it was logical to do so?
    I added that bit 'cause I thought you would respond to it Toby. I hope the hurricane didn't get your feet wet.

    Homer, I understand your frustrations and concerns. When anybody ties together war and religion, I cringe. I've been pleased so far with the lack of that kind of rhetoric so far. Most of the Christians I've spoken to/heard have been more concerned with those that have perished and their loved ones than retaliation. The majority that have said anything about the terrorists have actually done so in prayers of forgiveness.
    I think that you're right saying that if we Christians start to call for a "holy war", than we've committed just as grievious a sin as those misguided terrorists. A big part of the Islamic religion concerns protecting the weak, and I can't see how a sane person could disconnect all those innocent civilians from that word. This is not about Christians versus Muslims, it's about sane, rational, caring people against psychotic, illogical, anger filled people.
    No one race/religion/country has a monopoly on idiots. We must all strive to remember this, and not let what they do make us into something akin to them.

    Michael
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  15. #15  
    Originally posted by homer
    In their God's eyes, they dished out justice by killing Americans.
    Is that really what their God calls justice or is it what they THINK he calls justice?

    (As in, was the Inquisition what the Christian God calls justice or is it what the Inquisitors THOUGHT he wanted?)

    My point is, all religions have misinterpreters. (sp?)
  16. #16  
    Originally posted by LarryN
    [...] Last night on CNN one commentator made a off the cuff comment saying that it's really weird that the person you would have been cutting off in your car on Monday, you're hugging today. [...]
    Actually, I found that ironic. The same people who probably couldn't have cared less if somebody stabbed you on the street corner were now suddenly concerned because you were under a building on that street corner.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #17  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    Not even if it was logical to do so?
    Why would it be logical to do so?
    I added that bit 'cause I thought you would respond to it Toby. I hope the hurricane didn't get your feet wet.
    Actually, the weather's been lovely here. Floridians are the ones who are getting soaked and pounded.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #18  
    Is that really what their God calls justice or is it what they THINK he calls justice?
    Exactly.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  19. #19  
    ...those of us who carry many electronic gadgets aboard may now face additional scrunity...

    Although this article appearing online at sfgate.com and in print in the San Francisco Chronicle broadly describes the new guidlines in airline travel, I can forsee how security can react to the devices and accessories we (or at least I) carry.

    This paragraph from the article is perhaps a sign of the new air travel:

    "Minimize carry-on baggage. It will be inspected more closely than before, and this will slow down you and those behind you."

    In the national media, they're reporting on the many airports now conducting "dump checks"-- they empty your baggage, sift through the contents and leave you to re-pack.

    I know there are some in the global audience who have said that "it's about time" the U.S. beefed up air security and/or that America's air travel was blessed/naive/[pick your favorite term for saying "not waking up"). Whether it's justified or not, I don't think I can ignore the fact that the events on Tuesday will affect how and what I pack as well as what I carry onboard... I'm the type of person who will try to avoid adding inconvenience by being informed (and if you haven't learned the layering method of packing, that might assist greatly should you get selected for the dump check).

    With past postings here on VisorCentral asking, debating and using our PDAs on planes, we might find that our ability to do so may alter in the coming months. Time will tell as there's no certaintly that the new guidelines are permanent.

    Thoughts?
  20. #20  
    I'm not sure how bag searches, banning steak knifes on flights, and restricting carry-ons are a security beef-up.

    Terrorists aren't stupid. They aren't going to go 'gee, they are searching everyone's back packs. There goes my whole plan to hijack the plane.'

    ANYTHING can become a weapon. Smart terrorists can conceal pretty much anything. All that these searching of bags is doing is inconveniencing the innocent traveler.

    There are clear alternatives. I believe it is France who always has an undercover, armed agent on board at all times. They could seal the cabin so that once the plane is in the air, there is no way to gain access. They could develop ways to prevent jet fuel from fireballing upon impact. They could develop remote systems to alert ground crews when and how a plane is hijacked. Improve Auto-pilot functionality. They could develop plane parachutes (like they currently have with personal aircraft). Etc.
    Last edited by homer; 09/17/2001 at 05:33 PM.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
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