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  1. #21  
    Originally posted by homer
    All that these searching of bags is doing is inconveniencing the innocent traveler.
    That's the point of my original comments... isn't the goal of terrorism is to generate fear and compel a change in behavior? The latter part seems to fit the topic title as a direct result of Tuesday... irregardless of what people think how effective the increased searches are post Tuesday.
  2. #22  
    As a pilot...I can tell you that the key to stopping a hijack is to change our passive resistance strategy. I can tell you right now, if the door was stronger and they threatened to kill someone if the door wasn't opened...in 30 seconds you could eliminate that threat. Decompress the plane and you can't breathe. A 45 degree turn out of nowhere also works...and you know, do a steep dive and your head becomes a pancake. Either way...you better be wearing a seatbelt and not be walking around.

    One comment I would like to make is that this isn't an us and them, our God and their God war. The fact is that these people do not speak for their religion. They only think they do. Christians and Muslims really worship the same God...the prophets of the Christianity are the prophets of Islam. These people are just twisting their religion to fit their own agendas...just like Christianity can be twisted as well. Let's not forget the Crusades. When someone like Falwell and Robertson gets up and speaks for Christianity...and spews out a bunch of hate and spite masked as prophecy...it sounds no different than what Osama and his lot preach.

    Lastly...I want to say shame on any person out there who is targeting Muslims...anyone who insults, attacks, or shows hatred to American Muslims (some of who are third generation) should be ashamed of yourselves. You are no better than the terrorists. I am ashamed to be an American when I hear of these attacks on their homes or places of worship. Did we learn nothing from WWII?

    lastly, I am proud of how we have come together. I am also proud of everyone who has contributed to my little drive. So far we've almost raised $2000.
  3. #23  
    Originally posted by agraham999
    the key to stopping a hijack is to change our passive resistance strategy
    So true. If one can't gain access to the cockpit, one can't hijack the plane. Taking it a step further, if one knew they had no chance in hell of getting into the cockpit, would they even attempt to take a hostage and/or cause harm to the passengers?

    It's also important to remember that preventing hijackings isn't the whole solution here, either. If that option is taken away, these barbaric dregs of humanity will find other methods.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  4. #24  
    The planes shoud be flown remotely if not a valid reason for being extremely off flight plan.
  5. #25  
    Originally posted by george_vc
    The planes shoud be flown remotely if not a valid reason for being extremely off flight plan.
    I've recently heard this on news stations as well. However, this opens a new way for tech types to hack into that system and crash planes remotely. I would be totally against this technology.

    That being said, what happens when a member of the cockpit crew needs to go to the bathroom? Or they are getting served their meals or a glass of soda? Or there is a electrical fire in the cockpit? Or the crew needs to stretch their legs during a 10 hours flight?Unfortunately, the door to cockpits need to be accessable from both sides.

    The FAA is now placing armed undercover personnel on random planes. I'm not so sure I like this idea either. Ever hear of a sudden de-pressurization at 30000 feet because a bullet rips throught the fuselage? A better option, and they most likely already thought of this, is to arm the special undercover agents with stun guns, or something of the like.
  6. #26  
    "Why would it be logical to do so?"

    Don't ask me about that logic stuff, I'm the same guy who joined the Marines with an open contract and once bought a car ('67 Firebird) 'cause I liked the original translucent lucite steering wheel that it had (the gold flecked vinyl upholstry was pretty groovy too!).

    "It's also important to remember that preventing hijackings isn't the whole solution here, either. If that option is taken away, these barbaric dregs of humanity will find other methods."

    I agree, while tech solutions can make it more difficult to implement this kind of attack, they can't completely prevent it (lot's of 'bright young things' out there looking for a challenge to crack). The solution, if one is possible, will have to come from the removal of the reasons for the hatred.

    "When someone like Falwell and Robertson gets up and speaks for Christianity...and spews out a bunch of hate and spite masked as prophecy...it sounds no different than what Osama and his lot preach."

    I found it interesting that my pastor was so misguided
    that he broke with those Christian 'leaders' and actually prayed for the souls of the terrorists. He must have a different version of the New Testament than they do. I know they have Bibles for kids, women, teens, fathers, etc... I just didn't know that they had a version for rascist, mysoginist, hate-filled reprobates. Must be published by that venerable publishing house, The Beezlebub Press.

    Michael
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  7. #27  
    Originally posted by LarryN
    The FAA is now placing armed undercover personnel on random planes. I'm not so sure I like this idea either. Ever hear of a sudden de-pressurization at 30000 feet because a bullet rips throught the fuselage?

    "Armed" doesn't necessarily mean with a gun ...

    A better option, and they most likely already thought of this, is to arm the special undercover agents with stun guns, or something of the like.

    ... as you say.
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  8. #28  
    I know they have Bibles for kids, women, teens, fathers, etc... I just didn't know that they had a version for rascist, mysoginist, hate-filled reprobates.
    I don't think the bible is only for select people. The bible can be picked up by anyone and interpreted by anyone in their own way. That's what makes it dangerous at times.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  9. #29  
    As I understand it, air marshalls are armed with pistols, but use special ammunition that fragments on impact, kind of like buckshot. The round used doesn't do as much damage as a regular bullet, but is also much less likely to penetrate the aircraft's fuselage.

    Also, one or two bullet holes aren't necessarilly catastrophic. Again, I'm no engineer, but I'm told takes a pretty decent sized hole to compromise the structural integrity of a modern jet enough to threaten the plane.

    Hopefully, the mere presence of the marshalls deter the whole thing from happening again. El Al (the Israeli airline) has armed guards on every plan, and they never get hijacked - despite being a very tempting symbolic target.

    Besides, what's the alternative? Would you rather have been on one of the planes that went into the WTC, or the one that went down in Pennsylvania? You are dead either way, but I know which one I'd choose.
  10. #30  
    Originally posted by VTL
    As I understand it, air marshalls are armed with pistols, but use special ammunition that fragments on impact, kind of like buckshot.
    It's also a lower velocity load than conventional bullets, hence:
    The round used doesn't do as much damage as a regular bullet
    ...to a plane. It damages humans just fine.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #31  
    "I don't think the bible is only for select people. The bible can be picked up by anyone and interpreted by anyone in their own way. That's what makes it dangerous at times."

    Homer, I know the Bible is for anyone and everyone (who want it). I'm just amazed that people can read any of the New Testament, believe it's true, call themselves Christians, and then promote hate and violence. By the way I'm a firm believer that inanimate objects can't be dangerous- only the people around them.

    "Hopefully, the mere presence of the marshalls deter the whole thing from happening again. El Al (the Israeli airline) has armed guards on every plan, and they never get hijacked - despite being a very tempting symbolic target. "

    I think the Israelis are a little more careful about who they actually let near a plane also. We have drivers licenses and they have citizenship papers, etc. Do you think internal passports are a good idea?
    "I am a debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish."
  12. #32  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    Do you think internal passports are a good idea?
    I think this is a good idea, most certainly for frequent air travelers. It's a bit of overkill but possibly a necessary evil.
    .
    .....
    MarkEagle
    .....<a href="http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/index.php?s=">TreoCentral</a> | <a href="http://discussion.visorcentral.com/vcforum/index.php?s=">VisorCentral</a> Forum Moderator - Forum Guidelines
    .....Sprint PCS Treo 650
    .....God bless America, my home sweet home...
  13. #33  
    Actually I think the saddest aspect of all...is that we can't win this war. For all our patriotism...I really believe this is going to get spun into a global clash between Christianity and Islam. For every innocent Islamic person who dies...five more will be turned to the cause. I believe that we will polarize the world with Islam on one side...and Christianity and Jews on the other...and on top of that...our actions could easily destabilize many countries.

    We may technically win this war through our great military...but at what cost to our own humanity? Unfortunately I don't think any of us know the right solution to put everything right.

    I fear for all those who will die on all sides of this conflict. This is truly WWIII.
  14. #34  
    Do you think internal passports are a good idea?
    Good idea for what? Does anyone honestly think that higher airport security and silly restrictions will do anything to reduce terrorism? hijacking a plane is merely 1 way out of a million to commit an act of terrorism. Enough biological agent to kill everyone in manhattan can be smuggled in a zip-lock bag. A nuclear bomb can fit into a duffle bag. We are focused on stopping the acts of terrorism as opposed to stopping the causes of terrorism.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  15. #35  
    "We are focused on stopping the acts of terrorism as opposed to stopping the causes of terrorism."

    ----------------

    Amen to that. As long as people view us as Anti-Islam this will go on and on. These pockets of people see us as an enemy of their faith. The fact of the matter, however, is that those like Osama aren't idiots...they know we aren't against Islam...they are just polluting the minds of their followers because they WANT a Cristian/Jew vs Islam war. To them, any faith other than Islam should be eradicated off the globe...just like many Christians view other religions that they have helped to eradicate off the planet. I have to say...if you reap what you sew...and 2000 years of Christianity have done a lot of good...but they also did a lot of damage.


    They have as much tolerance for others as many Cristians in this country have for other faiths. I mean honestly...missionaries go all over the world and convert the barbaric cultures of the world...destroying their cultures and belief structures. Catholocism destroyed South America, the Crusades killed many non-believers...

    I know that people believe they are doing the Lords work when they send missionaries around the globe to preach the word of Jesus and convert the unconverted. But I have to sometimes think this is increadibly arrogant and disrespectful. Christians think they are on the side of God and these radicals believe they are on the side of God.

    Here is a good hypothetical...if two armies are on the battlefield and they both pray to God to win the battle...who wins?

    They pray to God that they will win by defeating us and killing us off...we pray to defeat them (which really means killing them off). I know I am oversimplifying...but I can't help think that we are all a little guilty...our Government has for years built up dictator after dictator...we've been involved in conflicts we had no business in...and how many times now have those people come back to haunt us? We trained these people...our best trained their best.

    I believe in God. I was raised a Catholic...but I shunned religion...because in my view...religion is ultimately corrupt and dangerous. I think faith is a great thing...but I feel once you "organize" religion it often becomes the ideology of the person preaching it. When I hear Falwell spew his filth about what caused this tragedy...it only firms my beliefs that religion often leads to intolerance, fear, guilt, and anger. I know that not all people are like this...but the last 2000 years have not been the best track record for the virtues of religion. Falwell tells us that this tragedy happened because we tried to take God out of the Government. Whose God would that be Jerry? His of course. Our forefathers trusted in God that the words they wrote and the decisions they made would build a strong and fair nation. They did, but it isn't the laws of God that did that...it was our Constitution...a living, breathing document that allows all who come here to pursue their own beliefs. That is why Jesus doesn't appear in the Constitution. Our battles in Govt aren't over just the laws...but the moral interpretation of those laws...which are often directed by the religion of the people who challenge them. I think we have a long way to go before we are truly a tolerant nation.

    I am proud how our country has come together...but let's face it...we are staring down the barrel of what will amount to a holy war here...and once again...religion will play a major role in the death of thousands of innocent people on all sides.

    I may not subscribe to a religion...but I pray...and I pray we can all come out of this without experiencing the horrors we faced in WWII. I know this post seems all over the place...but I just fear for our world. I want justice...but I don't want war. I am torn between anger...wanting them to fry in the flames of a nuke...and wanting to make peace and start building a peaceful planet. I support this country 100%...but I hope our leaders make the right decisions and don't just take us in the wrong direction. I mean we don't get to vote on this you know. The decisions they make will forever change the world...good or bad.
  16. #36  
    Here is a good hypothetical...if two armies are on the battlefield and they both pray to God to win the battle...who wins?
    I wish the NFL would figure this one out too.

    Wow, agraham999, I agreed with absolutely everything you've said.

    I've been struggling with organized religion lately as well. It can be a good thing, but it is used so often for bad.

    I'm not an aethiest, but I'm also not sold on the idea of believing in god 100%...which a lot of religions require of you to 'join the club'. I'm not saying that there isn't a god, I do pray, but I'm only human, I have doubts.

    I think one problem is that few of us choose our religion. It is given to us by our parents. Because of that, we get very little education on other religions...which I think is a big problem. I think theology should be a required class in junior high school (perhaps combined with sociology and philosophy). And by that, I mean the studies of all religions, not the preaching of one religion.

    As for me, I've really warming up to buddhism. I like the whole 'self repsonsibility' aspect of it.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  17. #37  
    If you go back 2000 years before Christ...look into Eastern philosophy...you'll see aspects of very advanced Quantum Mechanics...we are beginning to see connections finally between science and "God." There is a very subtle and hidden intelligence to the Universe. If you look at the fact that nothing in the Universe ever dissapears...we are always changing state...energy to mass...mass to energy...you pull together philosophy, science and religion...you start to see a picture that there is something out there...that the Universe isn't just happenstance.

    However, religion often ignores science or pholosophy and science ignores religion and philosophy. We have people with fish on their cars and people denying it with Darwin fish...and others with fish eating Darwin fish. This tit for tat is insane...on both sides. Our culture doesnt' tolerate anyone who doesn't believe the same ideology.


    Everywhere you look around you...our society and religious tenants have not taught religious tolerance...only social tolerance. If you go to most Christian churches...people proclaim this is the one true way...the only way. And within Christianity there are factions that claim their's is the one true way. You also find this in Islam and other religions as well. The problem is that society is so busy convincing itself and others that their path is the only path...that they have forgotten the actual teachings of their faith.

    I often see and hear Christians chastizing other ways of life...while ignoring the message that Jesus Christ spoke of...turn the other cheek...ask forgiveness...peace..love....tolerance.

    I am not trying to attack Christians...because I was one...and I know many who are good friends...and they are wonderful people...but there are also many bad "apples" within their flock.

    If I have another problem with Christianity...it is that it has become a commercial institution. We buy and sell the image and icons of the church. I can tell you right now...that if Jesus did come back to see how the world has bought and sold his image...has worshipped his icon...has used his name for war...he would turn his back on us all. He never wanted to be worshipped...his mission was for all of you to hear his message...to follow his example...his path. Now many people do...but many don't. What Would Jesus Do? I'll tell you...if you thought he was mad when the money lenders were in the temple...


    I'll tell you this...and I hope it comes to pass. As a nation we need to open our eyes to the fact that our world does not revolve around us or our middle class caucasion values. We are a multi-cultural nation and our planet is all we have...and we have to share it...and we also have a huge responsibility to take care of it and one another. When someone comes to you freely looking for spiritual guidance...you can tell him about your faith...when you go to him and tell him unsolicited...I think that is arrogant. Converting people to your side because you know in your heart...you way is the only way...is shameful. So many wonderful cultures are lost to this world forever because of this.

    I can't speak for the entire Islamic history...because I don't know it...but I can speak to my own background and the history of Christianity. This faith has destroyed nations. It has conquered lands. It has pulled apart cultures and even languages that are lost forever. Christians brought the concept of shame to the island people. They were heathens and immoral. If I have one warning to give...it is to stop preaching the faith and start following it. Embrace the world, respect your neighbors...regardless of whether they believe the same as you. I know many of you do that...but so many out there still do not. And Jerry Falwell...I point my finger at you!

    I don't want to inflame anyone...I believe in God...I have a great faith...and I respect the message of Mohammad and Jesus...but I believe in my heart of hearts...if all of our cultures...especially Islam, Christian and Jew...don't change their tone and learn to respect and accept one another...this will not only be WWIII....but the last war any of us ever see. I pray we can find the strength to get along.
  18. #38  
    Originally posted by BobbyMike
    [...] Do you think internal passports are a good idea?
    They're a great idea, if you want the US to turn into the Cold War-era USSR. "Where are your papers? Who authorized you to be here?"
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #39  
    Well, either I am on everyone's Ignore list, or my posts just don't inspire people to reply, so I am just going to rant here for a bit because I think I can get away with it (although it may just be the Jolt and Ding-Dongs talking)
    Originally posted by Toby
    They're a great idea, if you want the US to turn into the Cold War-era USSR. "Where are your papers? Who authorized you to be here?"
    This was my thought exactly. What sort of freedoms are we going to, or willing to, give up for safety? What sort of safety are we willing to give up for freedom?

    I have been listening for a week now to the government talk about tracking down and finding those responsible for these most recent attacks. Now don't get me wrong, I am as patriotic as the next person, I served in the military, and want my country defended from it's enemies, both foreign and domestic. Some of the things I am hearing, though, give me great concern. "This is a global war against terrorism," they say, "it does not stop at Afghanistan." That's great! we say, let's hunt down the dogs that killed all these Americans and bring them to justice and/or kill them. I would think most Americans at this point have no problem with sending armed troops to Afghanistan to stop terrorists, but if "it does not stop at Afghanistan", where does it stop? Pakistan? Turkey? What if we get a lead that there is a group in Paris, do we now have armed American troops walking the streets of France? Of England? I am sure those countries would just love that.

    Oh, some will say, that will never happen. We would obviously work with the other countries, and their soldiers would take care of it. Would they? Many countries have given us their political support, but when reporters asked if that meant military support, ground troops, bullets, they whistled and stared at the collective ceiling, shuffling their collective feet. President Bush has stated that America "will stop at nothing" to stop terrorism. Strong words for the man carrying the biggest stick on the planet. What happens when Spain won't extradite someone we think is a terrorist because they don't think we have prove enough? We will make no distinction between those who are repsonsible for these attacks, and those who harbour them, right Mr. President?

    What about here at home? Congress has already given wider lee-way for search and seizure of private property of suspected terrorists. That great, isn't it, if someone is planning a terrorist attack, we want to be able to go in stop them, right? What if it's your neighbor? What if someone sends in an anonymous tip that YOU are a terrorist? No, you aren't a terrorist, but now your house is trashed, your name in the papers, and your neighbors all look at you out of the corner of their eyes. It just seems to me that we have spent the last 200 years refining laws preventing exactly this kind of witch-hunt, and we are on the brink of throwing it all away over a relatively small, albiet emotionally charged, incident.

    Why did they ban knives on airplanes? I know, I know, that's what the terrorists used last week to take over the planes, but they also used the threat of a non-existant bomb and the promise that everyone would be let go later (I guess in one way, that part was true ). My point is: we know that trick now. The folks on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania figured it out, and prevented the terrorists from reaching their intended destination, unless that was a particularly offensive corn field. I am just sorry they figured it out after they were all herded to the back of the plane. I can only imagine that if 4 people on an airplane today jumped up and brandished knives, stating they were taking over the plane, the other 200 people on the plane would jump up and beat the living crap out of them. I have heard a lot of people on the news saying that they will never fly again, it's too dangerous, and they are going to take a train or bus or just drive their own car. Now call me crazy, but have you seen the security, or lack there of, on trains and buses? I can believe anyone could believe that is better than at the airport. And driving? Flying was already much safer than traveling the freeways of our great country, and with the increased focus on security and maintenance, it's only going to get safer. I am not sure I want to fly on a plane without my Leatherman. It has a knife blade on it. Two, in fact. I had friends and family flying over the weekend, and I wasn't concerned about knives or forks or any type of flatware. I was concerned when they flew out of Dallas, but that was because of rain and lightning. Yes, my Leatherman has a knife. It also has a pair of pliers, screwdrivers, and a few other things. A few other things that I would like to have in case of an emergency like getting hit by lightning or sliding off a rain-soaked runway. As it has been said before, anything can be a weapon. I can strangle someone with a shoelace. I have seen some women wield a dangerous high-heeled shoe. Do we now ban footwear? Ties? Belts? Yes, we need to stop terrorism, but I am not willing to turn the United States of America into a police-state to do it.

    I dunno. I guess I just live in my own little world. <sigh> You're welcome to join me, and you won't need a passport to get in (although I would like to see some photo ID ).
    Soul Raven - "Små hjerne, stor glæde"
    Wherever you go, there you are.
  20. #40  
    Originally posted by Soul Raven
    small...incident
    5,000 plus and counting
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